Why is the 599GTO not included in the "supercars"

Just curious. My apologies if this has been answered before. But with the hallowed "GTO" name and the most powerful engine ever fitted to a Ferrari road car, it seems logical.

 

Yes but it’s not a separate car. The 599GTO is an enhanced (and that is quite an understatement) version of the 599GTB.

 

and even with the 288gto there were much more significant differences between it and the 308s. You couldnt just switch out some body parts and add more power to get a 288 (not to under-appreciate the 599gto but you know what i mean)

 

The 599GTO is an amazing car, but its not a Ferrari supercar such as the f40, f50 and Enzo. You have to remember, the f40, f50 and Enzo were all separate platforms developed from the ground up. In my opinion, even though the 599GTO is an amazing vehicle, its still an improved and fine tuned 599.

 

This is the 288 GTO/F40/F50/Enzo forum. In this section, we discuss the 288 GTO, F40, F50 and Enzo.

There is a separate 612/599 forum in which we discuss the 599 variants, including the GTO and SA Aperta.

Where is the confusion coming from?

 

Well said.

And AJ's post +1.

 

Extensive thread back in July

 

This.

 

So if the new Enzo were to be based on the 458 platform and have only 8 cylinders would it qualify as a Supercar?
CH

 

Depends. Remember, to anyone who is not a car person, the 599 and 599GTO are identical. The difference between the 308 and the 288GTO are much more noticeable.

If the Enzo successor has some 458 underpinnings but is a complete new design with radical styling and does not resemble the looks of the 458 then I would say yes, it could be considered a supercar.

Bottom line is the 599GTO is a factory tweaked 599. It is one hell of an exotic, but not a supercar. Park one next to a real supercar: an enzo, a zonda, a koenigsegg, etc and the differences should be very obvious.

 

it's not expensive enough

 

If it was called the "600 GTO" or something besides 599, it would be equal in presumption as the 288 GTO was compared to a 308 in my mind. But that isn't saying much

 

Because its not a supercar.

 

I think imo the thing that makes a supercar a supercar, in addition to highest performance level, is that the car must not have a generic type of body from another model. I.e. it has to be unique in style and immediately recognizable as a supercar, even to a relatively untrained eye. You cannot say that this applies to a 599 GTO which can easily be confused as "just" another 599. Now of course the only fly in the ointment of this is hypothesis is the 288GTO, which granted can be mistaken as a 308(288 owners can jump up and down all they want, but this is the truth!)
So whether the 288 can be justified as a "supercar" is another matter all together(this of course takes nothing away from the fact that the 288 is a great and desirable car, as is the 599 GTO).

In my opinion, the true F supercars of the modern era started with the F40.....

 

Then why is the XX not in the "super car" category? It is (1) exclusive enough, (2) fast enough and (3) expensive enough!!!

 

I have driven the 599, and the GTO. My opinion is ...while they look very similar in shape, their underpinings are vastly different. The GTO feels like a totally new car. It is the roadgoing version of the car used in the racing XX program. I would see it as a supercar. Bar the fact that it doesnt have a new body!

 

To be perfectly honest, I'm not convinced about the statement that this is a roadgoing version of the XX. I see the marketing words, but if you did a proper engineering evaluation of a 599 GTB, a 599 XX and a GTO which car do you think it would be closer to? My money would be on the GTB... Happy to be proven wrong by someone with real facts.

 

+1 Not that the GTB isn't a fabulous car already.

 

That is not what an XX owner thinks.

 

Have a read of Autocar's review on the GTO.......they drove both and made a comparison........I think you may have lost yourself some money

 

Having met the GTO development manager and been through the presentation - I'd say you're incorrect.

- the GTO engine is exactly from the XX with the exception of the addition of a catalytic converter for road homologation
- the total front aero profile is different to reduce frontal area
- the Gen2 magentorheological dampers are taken exactly from the XX
- the CCM2 second generation brakes with doughnuts are exactly from the XX
- F1 Trac systems and integration into suspension and VDC are totally different to GTB
- the sizing of the front tyres to eliminate understeer is a totally different configuration to the GTB.
- the GTO generates double the downforce of the GTB.

Yes, there is marketing speak in the whole positioning of the car - but it technically has little in common with the GTB barring the overall shape and packaging. The engine, gearbox, suspension, electronics and brakes as well as the aero is all very different and most of it either comes directly, or is derived from the XX.

 

Even the body panels are unique to the GTO being substantially lighter than the GTB/HGTE. The trunk area is also shorter and smaller reducing weight and shortening the rear end. Wider nose and raised rear deck for aero. All glass is different in thickness and weight. All of these arguements both pro and con have been brought up previously in the supercar section earlier in the year. Someone posted an interesting comment from the Ferrari engineers. When asked what needed to be done to convert a GTB to a GTO. They stated that the differences between the two are so fundementally different down to its basic engineering. That a GTB chasis could not even be used as a starting point in a conversion process. A supercar in my opinion is a racecar designed for the street. Thats exactly what the 599 GTO is. A streetcar designed directly from the XX. Will it hold its value over time and become a collectable like the F40/50/288 GTO/Enzo? It's much to early to tell. Those already who are lucky enough to already own and drive them believe it will be. There are others on this board that are convinced that the GTO is unworthy of its name. Completely disregarding the fact that Ferrari has honored it with that badge. Mine will arrive shortly before Christmas and I'll be happy to keep you posted.

 

Don't get me wrong I love the 599 GTO. However just because Ferrari gives it a name doesn't mean it's right. All the other GTO badged cars were true homologation units for a specific racing series that required it. This car was not designed for that homologation thus why call it a GTO? I think they just called it a GTO for marketing reasons to sale cars based on the name association. I'm not trying to take anything away from the 599 GTO but all the other cars were race cars built for the road to make them eligible in for certain race classes.

 

With all that tinkering, you'd think Ferrari would have redesigned the car.

It's kind of like the F512M was to the Testarossa -- many revised components, only 500 made, but looks a lot like the unlimited production version.

Ferrari, like Porsche recently, have been dipping into the heritage well more liberally when it comes to marketing. It's reminescent of Porsche applying the "Carrera" name to every rear-engined car that rolls out of the factory, when it used to be reserved for the four-cam racing engines, or Ferrari offering fender shields on any of its cars for a price.