Little help with a cold start

With another vintage car, I open the inlet and spray lost of break-cleaner or easy-start ( imo the same) in it and it always fires up...

Happy to say: have not had to do that with my 512TR .... :-0) !

 

If your TR has not been modified, you should only "hear the pumps turning on" when the starter motor is cranking (key in Pos III) or the engine is actually running (Key in Pos II and the 7-12 coil firing). If your fuel pumps come "on" with just the key "on" (Pos II) and the engine not running, someone has made some changes.

 

I believe that is the pumps priming.. Once primed your good to go... Does she turn over and run rought then stall or does she not turn over..

R

 

Can't agree. There is no "priming" function on F K/KE-Jet -- whether you cycle the key from off to on once or many times.

 

Well, let's focus on getting you running

Confirming that you have spark during starter motor cranking is the first hurdle -- and you report that that is OK. The next thing to do is to remove both fuel pump relays and use a jumper wire to connect the 30 terminal in each relay socket to the 87 terminal in each relay socket as shown in this jpeg:
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With the jumper wires in place each fuel pump should run continuously (even with the key "off") so the first thing to do is just confirm that you hear each fuel pump "buzzing" when you connect the jumper wire for that pump.

If both pumps do run, with them running (i.e., with the jumper wires in place), try starting the engine (since you have a euro K-Jet without Lambda). It still might not start if the control pressure is way out of whack, but you can use the jumper wires to run the fuel pumps to measure the control pressure (if you need to go there).

If the pumps don't run with the jumper wires in place that's a different kettle of fish.

So give that a shot and let us know the results, and we'll go from there.

 

Dear Ferraristi,

If you had the pumps running and tried to start the car but it wouldn't.....could you smell the unburned fuel at the tail pipe?


Steve....about "priming"

I was told when changing fuel filters, to cycle the key to Pos II about 5 times, as when you put the key in pos II, the pumps prime for a second or two. This way, you fill up the filters instead of cranking to death. I tried it by just cranking and with cycling.....cycling made a big difference. Can you please clarify?

While I'm only a learner in the presence of Master Jedi Steve M...I just wanted to ask...

Shamile

Freeze....Miami Vice !

 

Yes, if you've got spark and the fuel pumps are running, but the engine still won't start (and the flywheel hasn't sheared off the crankshaft ), measuring the supply and control pressures are about the only thing left on K-Jet without Lambda systems. One thing that I don't like is that the two banks are completely independent fuel-wise (past the electrical system) so having a problem with the pressures simultaneously on both banks seems unlikely (i.e., if one bank had a problem, you'd think it would still fire up, or at least "cough" some on the good bank). It does take a special (but not expensive) Bosch CIS pressure test gauge/kit like this one to measure the various pressures (available at the online tool places):
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but before going there, it might be wise to follow Mel's advice to try some spray starting fluid to make sure that it will at least "cough" on cranking. It's also possible that your cold start injectors aren't firing and it just isn't getting rich enough to cold start so it wouldn't hurt to put a test light across one of the connectors and confirm/deny if it lights up for a second or so during the first initial cold cranking event. Also, it wouldn't hurt to remove, and inspect, a spark plug or two just to make sure you don't have the other problem of too much fuel (i.e., fouled wet plugs).

I like the way that you think -- and my wife agrees with you! Seriously, about 3% of my "customers" recognize that it does take a non-zero amount of my time (and knowledge) to help them, and they graciously offer to make a small payment -- and I gladly accept $ donation to my Paypal account at [email protected]. Also, in the past, several FChatters banded together and arranged a RicambiAmerica gift certificate for me for which I am still very appreciative. I've been thinking about asking Rob for a raise beyond the free membership, but my only "threat" is that I quit FChat so I'd be cutting off my own nose

 

My TR doesn't do this (I checked last night), I've never seen anything in the TR documentation that says this happens, and nothing on the TR schematics indicates to me that this would occur. Maybe on the earlier K-Jet cars with the safety switch + relay arrangement, the pump might get a voltage kick in Pos II (before the safety switch + relay turns it off), but all TR (even the K-Jet ones) use the tachometric relay to control the fuel pump relays so can't agree that this happens (unless there are different variations of the tachometric relay where some give an inital output pulse at Pos II and some don't).

 

Shamile -- I forgot to add that, even if cycling the ignition key from "off" to "on" did briefly run the fuel pumps (and I'm not yet willing to concede that it does ), it is an inferior method. Far better IMO to remove the fuel pump relays and use the 30-to-87 jumper method to manually run each fuel pump without the engine running after replacing the fuel filters. Gives you a chance to check for leaks on each bank without the engine running, and it will fully pressurize the whole system if you run each side for ~30 seconds -- just a suggestion for next time...

 

Post #82 in this thread:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=303705

describes how to confirm/deny if the electrical system is trying to fire the cold start injectors (you should have the same orange wire in the same place in the j connector).

The cold start injectors are located in the middle of the upper intake plenums.-- see Fig 44 on page 64 of your 344/85 OM -- they are items E.

 

Dear Ferraristi,

But....what did you do...give it an angry stare?

When it was cranking....did you smell fuel? This is important, because if you did, I have another area for you to check....



Shamile

Freeze...Miami Vice !

 

Dear Ferraristi,

What's a snowblower??


If you crank and crank and smell fuel but no start, check tach signal sensor on the bell housing. If that sensor is intermittent, you will get exactly as you describe.

Many years ago....I had the EXACT same issue. BUT....mine was a factory fault. Inside the main wiring harness on the body, one interior pin inside a molded plug from the tach sensor was crimped on the wire jacket with the filaments in free air. The signal jumped the fault but as time wore on, the filaments wore down with the arcing and the no start and intermittent running got really bad.
It was really an insane amount of searching to find that fault...inside the plug! Ever since...my TR is super reliable.....54,000 miles reliable.


Shamile

Freeze...Miami Vice !