Ken, Saw it while it was being "tweaked", beautiful car. Congratulations, you now have 2 wonderful driving experiences. Sam
Hi Sam: I saw your GTC4 the other day when I went to pick up the new toy. Interesting to drive---to say the least. Now, I can do the comparison test !! Ken
Did anyone from F-Chat get the pretty burgundy car from Bruce and Spencer up at Fantasy Junction? Another dark green one sold privately here in San Diego over the weekend but do not know the chassis number. Ken's car looks better in his garage than the photos posted earlier. Anything but red looks fantastic with the PF Coupe lines. I will have 1989/GT out on the road for some fun this weekend to keep her sorted and in good running order. Cheers, Bill
Since I purchased my 250GT many years ago, mainly because it was the only Vintage Ferrari I could afford, I have enjoyed watching these fabulous and scarce cars grow in appreciation. I remember about 5 years ago meeting John V. at the Quayle, and as I walked up to his car commenting, isn't this considered a less than desirable Ferrari!!!!! If looks could kill. I agree with other comments, these cars are most attractive in almost any color than red.
Great stuff, Ken, they look great together. Interesting to hear you say it's just as enjoyable to drive as your GTC. I must get myself behind the wheel of these older Ferraris somehow. Onno
Onno: You should drive one of these cars and see how they differ from the GTC and later cars. Many people told me how I would not like them. But, after my first drive, I really felt that the PF Coupe was a very fine car (without spending $$$) and would provide a great experience with the 1950's era. From this forum, it seems that many other owners agree with me. There are a great many cars out there that have lots of problems---and this can cost a great deal of money to correct them. With today's restoration costs, one cannot completely restore one of these--without being under water. Any other comments?? Ken Goldman
Hi Ken, The cars look great in your garage. A very classy combination. You asked for more comments..........so here goes..... I have had the experience of driving a few of these vintage classics. One was a fully restored 250 PF. Back in the 80s my father bought a true basket case car....literally.....it was completely disassembled and all the parts were in milk crates. Buying it for $15000 was the inexpensive part. Over the next two years my Dad, David Carte, a Doug Richmond [hometown shop and masterful painter] found all the pieces to put this car back together. He was rewarded by an invite to Pebble and was presented a significant trophy on stage by none other than Sergio PininFarina. That was my opportunity to drive a 250 a few times. I agree it is a trip back in time type of experience. Heck my age was in single digits when that car was built so it was really a trip back before my time. It was a very classy ride with all the rights sounds, smells and feel.......and here comes the but........I just did not find it to be nearly as much fun to drive as my GTC. For some reason IMVHO the GTC provides a really nice balance of power, handling and [marginally] adequate braking. I love pushing it hard on the twisties and also use my GTC to pick up pizza, go to grocery store, etc. To me the 330 is right-sized and has all the attributes to keep me entertained. I smile everytime I get it out of the garage. But I guess that is what makes the world go round.....and you have the best of both. Congratulations.
That's not exactly what I was hoping to hear. Just for a reality check what are good cars selling for currently, and what would a good restoration on a complete car cost??????? According to Cavallino I have a lot of equity. And yes I know how inaccurate those prices are.
On the restoration end, I have spoken to some of the better restorers out there. All tell me--it is the same cost to do a PF Coupe as a Superamerica--really, what is the difference here? At a meet in Palos Verdes, I saw a PF Coupe and they said the costs were over $200K and not quite done yet. I think a very nice PF Coupe would go in the mid 200's today. I saw the one sold in Goodings auction here in New England before it left. That one was VERY ORIGINAL and needed lots of work. It brought close to $200 in the as is condition. It would be interesting to see what a very nice one would actually bring in auction today. Then we would have the market prices. Some people in Europe are asking over $300 for what they say is "Fully restored". I have not seen them--and do not know how their opinion would equate to what we see here. Happy Holidays....Ken Goldman
Ken Congrats on getting the car home. Looks wonderful. As to the dealers in Europe...as you can imagine I have seen some of the cars and honestly they are good...not great. That's why the "asking" is not "getting". Several cars currently advertised have been so for 6 even 12 months plus. The better cars are trading privately at strong but less than dealer prices....and that's where the value is. Enjoy your car as I know you will. Darren
Several years ago a very reputable Ferrari body shop gave me a number at 25k to deal with body work after seeing in depth pictures of my car. That did not include paint at lets say 15K? An engine rebuild on a running engine would be maybe 30K? Disassembly and re-assembly by myself. That leaves quite a bit left over for interior and misc. What am I missing? All my numbers have question marks!!!!
To paint a car today cannot be done at 15K. To do it correctly, with the glass taken out, all sanded down, etc. would be around twice that price--from what I am told by several restorers. As well, this process will take many months to complete---some tell me 6 months on a good day. Any others out there who have had this done? Please chime in. If there is engine work to be done---again, you have the time frame to consider--and these things always cost more than you expect. $10,000 does not go too far these days with labor costs being what they are. Ken Goldman
I'm not trying to be a trouble maker but I don't get it. Why does it take 6 months to get a car painted if your willing to part with the cash. I would tell my painter to take the car in and finish the job. Why couldn't I get a body back painted in a couple of weeks? I pull glass etc. hence my screen name. I prepped an XKE many years ago and it took me a week for the painter to accept the sanding job. I paid 4k for a stellar paint job on a Mark 2 Jag 20 years ago, and I did pull all the glass. Incidentally I live next door to a body and paint shop. Why the Ferrari markup?
No problem. What I have found is that the GOOD restorers have other things going on---usually many---and time goes by before anything is completed. All people that I have talked with--even those spending hundreds of thousands on restoration---tell me that it takes a long time to get things done. Thus, I have tried to buy cars that have been restored by others. Perhaps your man next door can do it faster--but that will be the exception to the rule. Good luck--if you do the restoration, let us know how it goes Ken Goldman
What constitutes a good paint job is not an absolute, but a flexible concept. Since I have become involved with restoration, I have learnt the difference between top quality and good quality. The principle difference is the prep work. You cannot do this with machines if you want the absolute best result for your paint. You have to do it by hand. If you want a truly flawless surface and crisp (but not too crisp) lines, you need to use the old tinning technique as well, which hardly anyone does anymore (and it wouldn't surprise me if laws in the US prevent that technique from being used). To give you an example - I looked at a Daytona with my painter that was being restored. It was clear that the German owner was spending fortunes on it. The car was spraypainted beautifully, in the correct paint code, small metallic flakes etc.. But if you saw the way the light moved over the body (just rock your head a little bit, or move a door or bootlid), then you could see that the reflection was not perfect. A year later, I now see that from 25 metres away. And I can't stand it. The only way to get that reflection perfect is to prepare the surface, before you paint. 99% of all restorations out there never achieve the level of quality that I have seen is possible. All this kind of attention takes time. And time costs money. I have gone through this process with a TVR Griffith this year, and the guys I'm using even got this glassfibre body to have a perfect reflection. The whole process took around 4 months. But that was just the chassis and bodywork, we are now 6 months on and the car will be ready next spring only. The total cost for both chassis and body was EUR20k. I am not saying this is what it HAS to cost. But so far I've not seen a paint job for less money that I would be happy with. I am doing my 365 Boxer next spring - expected costs for that are EUR25k. If you want to have a look at the Griffith work, then try this link: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=264059&page=15 The good thing is - when a job is done properly, then it lasts. My 330GTC is still flawless and that was done in 1990. I know of plenty of cars that have had 2 restorations in the same amount of years. And this is to me why it is worth it. But one more thing - lot's of people don't see the difference between a good paint job and a great one. If you don't, then don't spend the money. As long as you are happy with the bang-for-buck, then that is what matters. I have found that there are a lot of judgements out there. "How can you spend that kind of money?". Well it is my money and I find it well spent. What you do with yours, is up to you. If you're happy with (in my view) an inferior paint job, then good for you. Onno
Onno: I think this was very well put. You can get a paint job for short money---or spend tens of thousands. Which ever one makes you happy--one should go for !! Just remember--they are not the same. Ken Goldman
Thanks for the comments. As I get closer to retirement restoring my car becomes more and more interesting. The flip side is that in a few years I'll still be sitting on one of the last orginal condition cars.Thats not so bad either. One thing I keep thinking though is how many "very original" cars with $600.00 paint jobs done in the late 60's are running around out there, and everybody loves them. So how about costs for engine and trim. Any comments?
I'm in the same boat w my GTE, it is mostly original cosmetically (30 year old repaint, original interior) but has had all mechanicals recently updated and gone through so it makes a great driver. I've basically decided if i want a restored GTE I will likely just buy another. It will likely cost less than restoring mine correctly and also I wont regret losing the "patina" that so many (including me) enjoy...
Engine is very flexible. A full rebuild for a Colombo engine is in the order of $30k. As for interior, it's very dependent on the quality of craftsmanship and also the quality of the hides. You can have $10k of leather in your car, or $2k. How badly do you want originality? I would say that you can have a vintage Ferrari completely redone for $12k and quite a few people could be perfectly happy with the result. My Boxer will cost me double and again I think it is a fair price for the end result I am looking for. I am very keen on having the exact old Connolly process and pattern imprint (a stamp rolled over that customers were able to order back in the day to make the leather have a certain look) to generate the hides, this makes them expensive. But it's important for the overall quality feel of the restoration, IMHO. Onno
In the San Francisco area, a home motor rebuild will set you back about $23-25k-- figure one half for parts and the other half for machinist labor. But a name brand rebuilder would be likely twice that, but then you get the waranty and the reputation behind the motor. john
My 365GT motor rebuild was around $30k, but the builder wasn't a big name. He did a nice job, though.
I seem to remember a discussion here around two-tone PF coupes. Not too many came this way and probably for good reason. Unlike the Boano, the PF coupe seems too modern and angular for a two tone paint scheme. But, today by chance I saw this and have realized that the duo-tone scheme works pretty well sometimes-- if the combination results in low contrast. http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/90464/index.html?no_cache=1&ret=63 john Image Unavailable, Please Login
