125 and 159

I don't know if there were one or two 44kg chassis, but if 002 is the oldest 44kg chassis known, 001 should be a similar one, because I don't think it was 56kg, and for me 001 came before 002.

 

All True. Born as a 159SC in 1947 converted to a 166 and sold by Ferrari as a 166I as you've noted in December 1947.

Best

 

Very sorry, my mistake. I should have just referred to this comment and not atributed it to anyone. I gather you don't agree with this theory. If you are saying that the schematics of 010 are wrong and the chassis is a 55klg please say so and why. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

So 002 became a Tipo 166 in december 1947, and 001 was sold as 159 in february 1948.
I think this is a demostration that 001 was built before december 1947, because I don't think that Ferrari built a 159 when he had the new 166 engine.
But if in december '47 the 166 engine was ready, the project started at least one months before. And if at Ferrari they were working on the 166 engine, they probaly didn't build a 159, and they waited for the new engine.
So 001 was built at last in september-october 1947.

PS-Do you know why barchetta.cc said that 001S was sold to Sterzi in november 1947???

 

And if the 159 engine was damaged after Bazzi's accident? It's possible that they used a 125 engine to replace it in 02C/001, while the body was rebuilt with the "slightly different nose".
And if you say "they simply decided that's it's better to start in the 1.5 litre class" it is possible that Righetti's accident car was 01C, which they would like to use at Modena (but 159SC raced with the normal 1.9 engine!?). After the accident they moved the engine in 02C/001 for the race.
Another theory, unfortunately I ask a lot of questions, and doubt of all.
MPC

 

A question to Napolis:

 

Please refer to my comments to post #118 in the thread "002 back to #78". tongascrew

 

I try to restart the discussion.
I think that Pescara 125S was 001(S) and that 02C never appeared after Firenze.

So an accident occured!

Righetti's crash wasn't fatal, but "the car obviously disappeared". ???

The damage came from the accident of Bazzi in the end of august:

MPC

 

I've studied this question for years, and exchanged many emails with Michael Muller, who has done tremendous research into these early years.
As far as 1947 is concerned I think it is impossible to say with 100% certainty what happened.
There were four different noses on the 125S, but there definitely weren't four different cars. So one car with different noses, or two cars with different noses? Hard to tell, but it's fun trying.
Nathan

 

Hi Nathan,
I have a question for you...(but also for everybody)
I understood you have a lot of books about those cars and you researched on it a lot, so:
Are there some evidence that Modena full-wight body car (#16 for Righetti) was a 125 and not a 159?
In the pictures shooted by Millanta at Maranello before the race we can see that the engine is different from the previous 125S one, and more similar to 159SC (002C) one, with the horse-shoe air intake. Why?
I think this can be important...
I hope you can help me.
Thanks
MPC
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The engine is not (visibly) different, only the air intake.
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You are right M.M...
And it can be changed with all the front part of the body after a crash.
But the question remain: 125S or 159S at Modena?
MPC

 

As far as I know there was no external difference between the 125 and 159 engine, apart from the intake, as Michael pointed out.

But I believe that the Modena full-width car was fitted with a 125 engine, for the following;

Colombo p.20; "Ferrari built two 125 S cars, one with the 'coiled' bodywork, and the 'thick wing' which first appeared at Piacenza and won its first victory at Rome." Therefore 'thick wing' = Sports body
Colombo p.28; "we obtained the motor which was known as the 159S … which was mounted in the chassis of one of the 125 S models, the one with the 'thick wing' bodywork … The debut took place at Pescara." So this is 01C - sports body.
Colombo p.32; re Modena "Then finally came Fernando Righetti's 125 S, the 'thick wing' type which had its original engine refitted"

Hope this helps
Nathan

 

But the sentence is surely wrong: the Piacenza roadster raced at Livorno (after Pescara) with a body different from Pescara one (and identical to Piacenza one), so Pescara 159S isn't on 125S roadster chassis, is a different (maybe new) car.

That should be Pescara 159S (which Colombo remember as a 125S with new engine) fitted with 125S engine. Maybe the 159 engine was under work to make it 166, or was damaged in a crash (or Ferrari decided to race in the 1500 class, as Michael suggested).
I don't think Modena #16 was the old Piacenza 125S cause the body was more similar to Pescara one.
MPC

 

I'm looking for blueprints of 125S and 159S, of all the versions...
Thanks,
MPC

 

02C ran in the Mille Miglia 1947 #219, driven by Cortese/Marchetti. Did anyone have a picture of this Race ?

 

The only picture I know shows the dashboard.
If I remember correctly it's from Millanta archive, but it doesn't shows the car, the race number, the driver or other useful particulars...
The car finished the race very early, so there might be a few picture of it.
MPC
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I have updated my site with side views of each 1947 type :

http://curve.folieo.com/1947-p-en

 

I have always had a love -hate relationship with the "early" cars....Dis some heavy work and fabrication-including involvement in a block which was broken in 2 pieces!(car is running today-I think?) SAome cars which seem to come to memory are: 009(?), 006(?), 011(?)..a couple of 166MMs(they must remain un-named...)..I simply can't remember the chassis numbers..but they were all, totally, individual charactered cars...
These pictures are quite nice...truly captures the "through the prism of time and memory" sort of thing...
WELL DONE....

 

Very nice but 03C should be changed to 002.

Best

 

Hi Jim,

Yes, I know your opinion on the subject.

Without opening an endless polemic, I'm very surprised that you didn't find any proof that 03C had ever existed...

 

There's no credible proof that I've ever seen including 002's COA signed by Enzo showing it's build date and that it was the third Ferrari built.

"CERTIFICATO D'ORIGINE
N. 003

AUTIOTELAIO tipo 166-I
N. 002

 

I'm sure you know that a "Certificato d'Origine" doesn't mean the car didn't have another life BEFORE the certificate with another identity...

 

There is no credible proof that it did including it's physical chassis or it's race records all of which clearly show 002 with no evidence of any other stamping.

03C was Stan Nowack Wack.

If you have any credible proof that 002 was once 03C or that a different car 03C ever existed post it.
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Yes of course, but sometimes, we are not allowed to do it unfortunately...