Is Ferrari confiscating and crushing replicas?

Depending on the context, of course........
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Which, IMO, makes seeing, or owning a real one even more special.

 

I'm not so sure about that. My wife's next door neighbor growing up had an original Cobra, since sold. He said he just stopped trying to explain that it wasn't a fake/recreation/replica every time he took it out.

End of the day, they really are just cars.

 

The truth and reality as it relays to ACV of "real" GTOs and "fakes" is simply not the same metaphor as it is being applied to Cobras, for the following reason(IMHO!):
The skankiest GTO's, with shaky racing histories, sketchy bodies-whether original or rebodiued{recently or in peroiod is immaterial for the purposes of these evealuations}- have recently been trading hands in the high teens of millions US..I know, they almost ALL have been shopped to either myself(for my client's purview), or, directly to them...
Some medium to B+ examples have been in the low to high twenties of millions, and, all of the A to A+ cars are sale proof-having turned downed offers with the first numeral being a 3....
In 1964-5, the FIA winning team Cobra Daytona Coupes-the "Ferrari killers"-sold at an all time high of 6-8 million....at auction, for the car widely thought to be "the pick of the litter.."
Soooo...by my math, you can buy them ALL and still not have enough to buy an A-A+ GTO...This speaks to a level of weath in the pool of "new money" held by the class of this generation of GTO ownership which so far eclipses the money capbilities/capacities of the Cobra ownership pool-as a whole-that common sense suggests to me that these new GTO owners are NOT at all concerned about "fakes and re-pos", as they not at all care as to thier GTO being confused with them-the bogus ones-for the real thing! They-the Billionaires-ALL know who has what and who paid how much...don't kid your selves...

Much similarly said: is the $20.00 Cezanne print{fake/re-popo/siolkscreening...) in my bathroon, to be cofused from the original by the actual owner of the Genuine article(?), which-ironically-I had the oppritunity to view in person last weekend!(talk about "ether money", cars are CHEAP compared to that stuff!). Forget it!

While I'm sure there are ample millionaires who are readers and posters here, I'm pretty confident there aren't any BILLIONAIRES in here, and THOSE GUYS are the "new money" for GTOS, and I just do not think that there is the proper perspective being offered forth as to how these guys really think and do business in the course of the prosecution of their lives...
And yes, the "rich' do live differently than the rest of us....
FWIW: In our lifetime, we will see certain Ferrari racing cars change hands in the over 50 Million dollar threshold...sooner than you might think...beleive it, as it was straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak...

In summation, these sorts of cars have traversed into the arena of highly collectible places to park huge sums-sometimes for taxpurposes-and in the future, fewer, and fewer will ever come to market again as they will be included as inventory into very complex financial instruments which will virtually preclude sales "out in the open markets". Even today, think of ANY "legit comp Ferrari 12 cyl car"-1956-64, which you can buy for less than 6-8 million today? Only a handfull, and that pool diminishes monthly...It's viewed as the sunset of "the Golden era" of auto racing and manufacture.....FWIW...

 

Since Replica cobra's and 550 Spyders are being brought up I wanted to chime in. I am the owner of a (real) '79 308 as well as a replica cobra and a Beck 550 Spyder. The main reason I bought both of the replicas is that I loved the shape and style of the European sportscars of the '50's and '60's. My cobra has no badging on it at all. The 550 does as I was trying to replicate a particular car. I am very up-front with anyone that asks.

One of them I built myself and I can tell you certainly that many of these replicas are built as therapy for the builder. I know many a builder that simply sells his cars at the end of the driving season so he can start another project for the winter. The issue for us builders is that most of us are not automotive engineers to do it totally from scratch. So we build the kits we have access to like Factory Five and Beck as well as others. The whole point of building a kit car is so we can do it "our way" without cutting up one of your precious originals.

I think those that say "if you can't afford a real one, then tough luck" are way off the mark. I like the shape of a particular car and if someone makes a kit that replicates that shape, then I am going to gravitate to that kit as it is as close to the real thing as most of us are going to get. Unless you had a father that purchased one back in the day, or are a member the the lucky sperm club so you have more $$ than you know what to do with, most of us were never exposed to those cars when we were younger to have the opportunity to buy them 30 years ago when the prices were lower.
So all we can do now is to build or buy a replica as a tribute to the real thing that has now been placed on a pedestal.

Ferrari's that are re-bodies are still Ferrari's and should be able to wear the badges and logo's of such. Replicas with zero Ferrari DNA would be better off without the badges.

This is one of those arguments that can never be won as either side thinks they are right and the other side is a bunch of damn fools.

(Sorry. Just wanted to get that off my chest)
Now carry on.
Charlie

 

I feel sick looking at it.

 

No, I mean the 6 cylinder cars, which by the way, I lust after. I actually like the styling of the GT4 althouerragh many don't.

As far as what Jim did with the P4/5, I don't agree with adding it to the list of gripes. Look, it was VERY common in the past to buy a chassis and have a custom body placed on it. It's just that custom bodies have fallen out of favor so they are no longer common, and, of course, they are for the more affluent. P4/5 is a contemporary car, not the rebody/ pillage of an antique/ vintage car. The breadvan is similar if you look at it with the appropriate historical perspective. I think it's pretty high nosed to call it a "Ferrari of Historical Importance". It was rebodied in it's time period to go racing. It is historically appropriate. It is a rebodied Ferrari. Frankly, in that era, not much different than taking a 250 chassis to Fantuzzi and getting something unique ( now why go to Fantuzzi I don't know, I've actually not seen anything I like of theirs). People buy cars to race all the time. That's what SCCA and IMSA, etc. ( yeah, dating myself, but only a bit) are about. It doesn't matter if it's a Toyota or a Ferrari (except that the Ferrari SUPPOSED to accelerate).

The real problem is exactly what the factory and most of the members here are bent about: replica's. Taking a perfectly good donor car and making something out of it that it never was, and badging it as if it was. Cobra, Daytona, Cheetah, Mclaren, Lola, GT40 what ever. If you want a look alike/ performalike, fine, just don't badge it. Shoot, i love the GT 40, the Miura, the 250 LM, etc. I get why people have replica's, but just badge it for what it is. Truth is, some replicars are so good they command a price in their own right. Personally, I can't own a replica of something because it SCREAMS wanna be and that isn't me. I either can and do, or can't and won't.

Any way, I think there is a world of difference between cannibalizing another car to mimmick something that it isn't - GTO, P4, etc., and something that was modified out of the box ( Alpina, AMG, Gordini, Abarth, etc.).

One of the members here has a beautiful 575 powered GTO look alike that must be a blast to drive. It is made of all Ferrari parts, it's gorgeous, what do you do with that?

I've rambled too long, thanks for the opportunity,

Charley

 

I don't believe the topic of this thread was the morality or ethics of creating replicas. Its whether somebody has the right to enter your private property and "sieze" your property.
Not at my house.

 

One thing about Italy is that fakes of any sort are illegal, not just Ferraris.

I know, as a joke I bought a fake Gucci bag for $20 in Florence. I was taken to the police station (not arrested as I wasn't put in cuffs or read any rights) where I was fined 1000€ and the bag was confiscated, put into evidence, which I was given an evidence tag and court date. I was told it would be destroyed eventually.

It was explained to me that in Italy if ANY product says to be made in Italy or inferred that it is a product of Italian origin but isn't is illegal and can be confiscated and destroyed.

This is Italy where Napoleonic law is the rule of the land not commonwealth Law like in North America.

 

This is why Italian judges hide behind bullet proof glass in the court room lol

 

Utter crap.

People want a replica because they want to enjoy the thrill of driving these cars.... hard... enjoying the sound, smells and full experience. They are passionate about it.

Just because they are not super rich does not mean they cannot have some fun and fulfill some dreams.

If it pisses off the elitist wealthy.... who gives a crap. The real things will always be the real things and the histories are well known. If someone is not trying to pass a replica off as the real thing then no harm done.

If so many replicas are built that 2+2's get rare then their values will climb and it will make economic sense to convert replicas back into their base car.

They are just cars, have fun with them and do what you want with you own property.



Terry

 

Thanks Terry. I don't know much about cars, so can you please explain something to me. If a car has the same engine, gearbox, chassis, suspension, brakes etc as a 2+2 but with a different body, how do you get a different thrill driving the car? They just look different but under the body they are the same. How does the body make such a difference in the thrill of driving? How does the smell, sound and driving experience change with just a different body?
Thanks John

 

I see your point. Totally...

now I never had the privledge of meeting or doing business with him... But I know a few who have... and they did quite a bit of business with him... and I would say that to many people "rossa corsa" tinted glasses of the pre 70s cars is unwarranted. After doing lots of reading, and talking to people with first hand knowledge/experience... to me... he didn't really care very much about road cars. Race cars yes. Road cars... ehh... not really... just a vessel to produce an income to be able to afford to go racing.

And I hope you do get the blessing from Ferrari for P4/5C! You/she deserves it!!!

Not that anyone cares about my opinion or my personal thoughts... but I would say to a certain extent... yes to the cobras, Daytona coupes and perhaps the GT40s.

Why those cars??? Because they are built with such humble beginings to begin with... they were all built with common american motors (except of course some GT40s). To replicate a car... go buy a falcon or a mustang guy the motor and put it in a cobra, daytona gt40 kit. AND they produce a million of these kits... some even with altered wheel bases from the original specs which just throws the car off completely. They make the cars more civil and/or less authentic... which again to me ruins it. I picked up a superformance cobra with a roush motor... and i hated it. Just all wrong. Ive been in a 289 cobra (even a real daytona coupe) and the car is just all wrong. Its so different and just wrong on so many levels I just couldn't get into the car...

I will say that the GT40s are much less bothersome... i know there are some extremely extremely good kits out there... I understand some of them even have parts that can be swaped directly off the real thing... which ups its cred to me... but again... i wouldn't pay for one...

Speedsters for me... I can't explain. I love those cars. I have actually owned 2. I with A/C one without... They were so well built, so much fun. Looked right... sounded right... and was just a ball to drive. Now I have never driven a real speedster... so maybe thats why I enjoyed it... but for the 14-16k I paid for a used kit speedster... i had an absolute ball driving it. It had great sound... it had a great look... it was fun peering out of the windshield trying to apex a corner at 35mph feeling like you were going 200... it was just a lot of fun at a low and safe speed and for extremely cheap money and it was a very very well made car in my opinion. Plus it stuck to the originality theme pretty well for me. But again, I will admit my speedster knowledge is pretty minimal. What I do know about them is... the knockoff was FUN!

If you have a testarossa replica or a GTO or SWB replica... I still give the car some respect... I mean its still enzos motor in it... the trans... the suspension... most likely the awful brakes are there too... I hate hate hate it when the body shape is wrong... but it probably irks me more and I pick up on the irregularities more because I covet those cars so much. Enzo had no hand in the shape of the cars... he left that to the coach builders and designers... he never drew a single shape and to my knowledge never suggest anything stylistically. While one could argue he never designed an engine he certainly had more input, involvment and desire with all things mechanical.

Do I dislike Fiero based testarossas??? ya... but they sure are fun to poke fun of and to "people watch" the people who came out of them....

Charlie... well said! I personally dont think a rational and logical person can say all replicas are crap... and I dont think a personal could ACTUALLY WILLINGLY say ALL replicas are fantastic. There is much grey...




And to the original point of the discussion... I don't think anyones replica fiero based or 250 based should ever be confiscated and crushed... its not any governments right to do so... well at least in my opinion.

 

I disagree 100% percent. I see no harm done in trying to pass a fake as something else. Who cares? World is full of con artists, so somebody else would separate an idiot with his money anyway.

I see the harm in creating a fake and destroying a real car. People who promote or even accept this, are no enthusiasts from my point of view. If people cannot afford a real thing, they should find something they can afford. There are masses of "lesser" cars that need love too and which are thrilling to drive, given the chance.

Best wishes, Kare

 

if ya need a hand I'm only a flight away in and out ,who's the hit.

 

Enzo also thought racings cars - when done their racing - were worthless, just scrap.

Best wishes, Kare

 

And they are.

However, getting a bunch of interested people interested in them is what made them valuable. When you start realizing that no one cares about fakes or real cars, why bother spending the money on either?

 

this post has been more beneficial yet...i have found in reading up, that unlike other laws, that one countries trademark laws can be enforced, even in other countries
so even though italy has more serious trademark laws, they can be enforced outside of thier own country, if is an Italy based company

that would explain why Ferrari can do some things, which we might otherwise see as unreasonable here


i would still like to know for fact/certainty (as this thread is titled) "if", "where" and "what" (type) of replicas, are allegedly seized/crushed by Ferrari legal actions

 

I believe there was a case a few years ago of a fellow in Italy who was selling modified Fieros and MR2's as 355 and 360 replicas.

Ferrari had the cars seized and destroyed. Can't say that I blame them.

Trademark law is enforced vigorously in much of Europe, as well it should be. For example, true Champagne comes from a specific region of France, where it is made with a very specific process that has been handed down over generations. Sure, wineries throughout the world might produce something similar, using a similar process - and to some, it might even be better - but it's not the same stuff!

A few years ago, I took a tour of a balsamic vinegar factory in Italy. Balsamic vinegar might not sound like any big deal to you - but this was truly special product, so thick and luscious that you could eat it over vanilla ice cream - and many (myself included) do!

As delicious as the various products we sampled were, the factory owner sadly informed us that he would not be able to sell any of his product that year because the regional governing board, with its strict standards, had found that year's batch to be subpar. Really.

I, for one, am glad for these stringent rules. They ensure the integrity of the seller and protect his reputation as a purveyor of only the best; and they protect the consumer from buying (possibly without realizing it) an inferior product.

For those who say, "But it's my money, I should be able to get what I want," I answer:

You want crap, buy crap. But it shouldn't say authentic Italian balsamic vinegar, Gucci, or Ferrari on it!

 

There are replicas out there that used donor cars that are built to such a standard that even the experts cannot tell them from the real thing except via the data plate. The 250GT SWB that Jon Shirley purchased from Lord Brocket was one such. There are GTO replicas to the same standards.

The replicas I was referring too are like this.... basically, exactly like the real thing except for the VIN and the history. If a replica is to this standard, you do get all the thrills of the driving experience without having to be super rich. Also, one can now enjoy the car to the max without risking destroying a massively valuable piece of history. I believe the FIA has even issued papers allowing some of these replicas to take part in vintage races.

I really do not think there are many if any replicas built from donors that are a simply body only swap. That would be tough to do given the difference in wheel base and such. Some replicas do however fail to a large degree to really replicate the running gear and details correctly.... but one gets what one pays for.

That said, if someone gets the enjoyment they are looking for from just a body swap, its their money even if its not my cup of tea.

You know... I am actually surprised that nobody has gone to the effort to build replica chassis so that no real cars are required to serve as donors.


Terry

 

I'm the same,its what they do with the Jaguar C/D Type replicars.

 

Then why are all the replica owners that I meet reluctant to say it's a replica (in fact, many lie about it outright)? If you're so passionate about it, why not disclose what it is? Etch "RECREATION" in the windscreen if you're really all about the experience and not about the posing.


Onno

 

Exactly.

If someone were to build, say, a 250 GTO replica with a replicated chassis as Jag suggests, then put their own insignia on it, I could believe that it was simply a tribute to a rare car, not made for any additional reason, and would have no problem with it.

A friend of my dad's has a replica of a Lotus 7 which is a pretty accurate copy but it has, I think, a Toyota engine and no Lotus badging. I'm okay with that.

 

So you know folks with a replica who tell people its the real thing? What kind of car?

If it were me I would tell people exactly what it was - for example I could say its a 1962 Ferrari 250GT 2+2 modified to replicate a GTO, or whatever.

As for why someone would lie about it, you would have to ask them. I have seen a number of replicas at various shows and such but have never run into one trying to pass it off as the real thing.

Hey, I know not everyone is going to agree with my position and thats fine by me. Suit yourself. But I do find it interesting that "ok with replica" guys like me sure seem a lot more tolerant and understanding of individual property rights than the guys who want to see replicas snatched from owners and crushed... along with the owners apparently. I really do not get the "kill them both!" mentality. I mean really...

I could possibly see myself with a perfect SWB replica, but in the past when it came to actually looking for and buying an older Ferrari I went with a Daytona and loved it. LOVED IT.

Damn I miss that car.

One reason honestly that I would not personally buy a replica in all likelyhood is the condescending crap and assumptions of desiring people to view me as wealthier than I really am that so many snooty Ferrari elitists would spout. To me, they are the ones all focused on the money and exclusivity thing. That part of the whole "Ferrari Thing" is really a turn off to me. I just want to flog a GTO or SWB to within an inch of its life on the track, giggling all the way!



Terry

 

I understand what you're saying about the issue of snobbery, but for me, it's not about how much the car cost.

My 308 GTB isn't all that valuable compared to most other Ferrari models, but I love it for what it is. I wouldn't ever put 288-style body panels on it, and don't think much of it when others do.

I think that 330's and the like should likewise be appreciated for what they are, not made into replicas or "recreations" of another model.

Further, I think that Fieros should retain the Fiero badge - or, as in the case of a really good re-body like that Lamborghini linked earlier - should wear a badge of the creator's own design.

I don't think individual cars - much less their owners - should be sent to the crusher, but do think that Ferrari is within their rights to confiscate and destroy the "replicas" that are being mass-produced with the Ferrari name and badging on them, as they did with a company in Italy that was manufacturing re-bodied MR2's and Fieros.

For me at least, it's not about the monetary value of any individual car. It's about the integrity of the marque.