458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

Given the data supplied by McLaren so far and real world data on 458, my best estimate is that 12C will be ~300lbs lighter when similarly equipped.

Agree that all of these cars are too fast for the road, but speed will always matter in varying degrees for different buyers.

 

Still think the car will help sell magazines, but don't think it is going to be a smashing success in the market.

 

Do you have numbers for the 458 on scales? If so, how much did it weigh?

I don't know about others, but I know that the exact speed of a car mattered a lot to me when I was younger, and a lot less after having driven some fast cars on the road. I think the Veyron has perfectly illustrated the difference between impressive numbers and desirability.

 

I have zero interest in the McLaren and wouldn't buy one no matter how fast it was simply bc its ugly. Anyone disagree?
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Here's one of the lightest configurations of Italia (3490 lbs.):
http://www.roadandtrack.com/var/ezflow_site/storage_RT_NEW/storage/original/application/5121d33d79730085db1abeb3d5e4aad0.pdf

Typical cars will weigh in at 50-100 lbs more. The McLaren should come in at 3100-3200, so around 400 lbs lighter.

 

I don't disagree that the look is a little bland, although I wouldn't call it ugly. I have only seen it in silver and based on pictures I have seen it looks a lot better in orange which I think I would order.

If the car is an epic driving machine then I would quickly get over the bland looks since I am not staring at it when I am at the wheel, and neither would my passenger be.

 

Well I wouldn't buy that white one - you've probably found one of the worst looking choices of photos to use as an example. Good way to make your point I guess.

Anyway I don't think the car is ugly at all.

>8^)
ER
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I'm not saying it's ugly but Rodney Dangerfield said when he saw it:

"Wooooo. The last time I saw a mouth like that it had a hook in it!"

 

I don't trust R&T's numbers. I'm not sure what their definitions for Curb Weight and Test Weight are, but they said the curb weight for the Enzo was 3240 lbs and the test weight was 3410 lbs. Bill S put his Enzo filled with fuel on scales and it ed 3260 lbs.

Ferrari said the curb (dry) weight of the Enzo was 3010 lbs, and Bill said it weighed right around 3080 lbs, without fuel. So if the other fluids were removed, the car might make it to Ferrari's stated 3010 lbs curb weight.

Ferrari say the 458 dry curb weight is 3050lbs (1380kg), and Mclaren are saying their car is 'less than 2900lbs' dry--around 1300kgs. I'm gonna stick with those numbers for now, and will look forward to the numbers derived from someone actually putting the 458 and 12C on scales in the future.

 

It does look a bit fishy. It's going to look outdated in a VERY short amount of time.

 

McLaren specs say the dry weight is 2870lbs exactly.

Evo put a 458 with lightweight race seats and wheels (which should be the lightest spec) on a scale and it weighed 1529kg (3364lb) ready to track. You can see it in this video around 49 second mark:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOU-dAVVdp0[/ame]

Seems safe to say the MP4 will be a good 200lb lighter at least in ready to run form.

 

Thanks SQ.

 

I believe "test weight' figures typically include the additional weight of a driver, as it is difficult to test a car without one.

>8^)
ER

 

Ah, thanks for the definition. It would be useful information if the test drivers were significantly different sizes during acceleration/handling tests. But they are worth leaving out for this comparison.

 

You don't trust independent sources (including, R&T, Autocar and many others etc.), but you trust manufacturer's propaganda? That's simply laughable. You clearly don't know what curb weight is. Please read up, a bit first. Bill's number pretty much exactly confirm R&T's numbers. Again, find out first the mystery of curb weight definition.

Ok, I will help you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_weight_(vehicle)

 

I am pretty sure it's gonna be good 400 lbs lighter in typical trims (especially in the US).

 

I agree 200 was the absolute conservative minimum I thought, likely more. If I were to bet i would say 325lb

 

Oh man. First of all, the tone of your post isn't great. I'm just trying to figure out a reasonable number for the 458's weight. Different people will have slightly different definitions of what's included in the curb weight figures and different methodologies when measuring them. Anyways, it's easy to lose faith in any number other than a scale weight. It ends up that I should've said that I don't trust you.

You claimed that the real-world weight of the 458 would be 50-100 lbs more than the 3490 RT curb weight. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you knew what RandT do to get their numbers in order to make the 50-100lb claim, and I went ahead and believed that RT's methadology left something out of 'their' curb weight. I then chose another Ferrari to compare to Bill S's numbers in order to figure out what was going. In doing that I saw that something didn't quite fit with what you were saying, or, possibly, with what RandT were doing. His car on scales was RT's curb weight. Not knowing what RT's 'test weight' meant, I lost faith in their numbers.

You'll see in my post that I wasn't relying on Ferrari's "propaganda", jack, I was comparing it to real world data, verifying that their reported dry weight was reliable enough to compare to Mclaren's claimed dry weight for the 12C. I was trying to get a more accurate number than whatever you were doing by arbitrarily adding weight to RT's published number. Anyways, 80 kg is the best estimate out there.

 

325? After looking around at some numbers, I could maybe see that. I was looking at the difference between the wet and dry weight for the 997 GT3 RS (I was looking for the 997 Turbo's numbers, but only came across these). Evo reports that the difference between a wet and dry GT3RS is about 125 kgs. That number might be close to what the 12C can do: the RS has a similar capacity engine, although the 12C radiators will require less fluid because of their central placement; also, the 12C is turbocharged with intercoolers and has more hydraulic fluid because of the gear box/wing/dampers, but Mclaren might have been aggressive in making sure the car absolutely doesn't carry excess fluids; lets say the number is close. The weight of the 12C with fluids would be 1425kg (3141lbs) compared to the 3490 figure for the US spec 458. That's a 349 lb difference. Even if the 12C has to carry an extra 10-20% of water/oil/gas, we're still at about 280/300 lbs between them. Although, the US spec 12C might have a slightly higher dry weight in order to meet the safety regs--bumpers, cats, headers, so maybe an extra 100lbs. It's interesting to think about.

 

I know, I'm quoting myself.

Krzys, Let me take back the 'arbitrarily' part of my comment. I see what you mean now: a differently optioned 458, with different seats and wheels would be 100lbs heavier than the R&T car. But I also believe that the 12C's lowest weight will be with the sport exhaust, seats, and wheels, No?

 

No lightweight seat option listed for 12C. Electric/ heated is optional which one assumes heavier than standard. Two lightweight wheel options: lightweight forged and super lightweight forged. Sport exhaust should be only slightly lighter b/c pipes vent straight back from engine and overall size of the exhaust has already been minimized by design.

Like I said, when you really read into this car, you will learn about the measures taken to minimize weight within the price/performance index. Yes the hydraulic dampers require fluid, but there are no heavy anti-roll bars on this car, etc., etc. Meanwhile Ferrari has produced a car that is heavier than the 430 it replaces. A step in the wrong direction IMO. If the 12C is not 300 lbs lighter when similarly equipped, I will be surprised.

 

That's precisely the point. McLaren took weight very seriously. Ferrari did not. Especially, after preaching a couple years ago that weight is priority over power. Ultimately, I think Ferrari made a bet that a technology (meaning aluminum) that is getting old fast will be fine for the next 8 years. I am convinced they are gonna lose this bet. You can cover up only so much by electronics.

 

Could you clarify what is the 8 year cycle that you keep mentioning? I think I missed something .. thanks

 

OK...after more than 35,000 views and 500 posts I thought it would be interesting to take a tally of our opinions on this thread? If you had only 1 choice and were looking for a car for road use that you would keep for 3+ years before reselling, what would your final choice be?

I vote: after close consideration MC's styling looses and I pick 458.....IMHO

 

I can't tell you,yet...
I had 458 (best sports car overall I have ever driven and I drove probably 99% of cars in that category) but I have not driven the MC.
I'm getting one though and will know which is better (for me) after I spend some time in it.....