458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

I understand what you're saying. You think a typically optioned 458 would be at least 300lbs heavier than a typically optioned 12C, where the breakdown would be something like 80kg difference in dry weight 15 kg difference in fluids, and 40 kg difference in typical options: 135 kgs.

I agree with you about Ferrari and the weight of their cars. I don't like the trend either. I am just trying to get a more solid feel on the difference in weight between the cars as there were several pretty big figures mentioned, but with no real rationale.

The 1300kg dry weight is with the car's lightest configuration, which I assume would also include the carbon options: press release http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=23&t=826182&nmt=RE:%20McLaren%20MP4-12C:%20Official%20Stats%20And%20Tech%20Specs

When the car was initially unveiled, their configurator had a lightweight seat option. They've since removed it.

If the 458 is like some other Ferraris, it would've gained weight for the US, but I'm not sure how much. The frustrating thing about the evo magazine measurement is they don't tell us how much fuel is in the car. If a fully fueled US 458 is 3490, then a car with no fuel would be (6.2*22.7) 3350. So if the evo car was representative of a US car, it would've had about 3 gallons of fuel in it, which is possible. I'd be interested in knowing how they test their cars.

 

seems like we are splitting hairs here ..

 

Ferrari plans to keep the current car (458) for an 8 year cycle (with refreshments). The fundamental (aluminum) structure will not change during this period.

 

Differences between euro and american spec cars can be significant. It's something to pursue.

 

Do you or anyone else know of a dealer in Florida for Mcaren? I Gogled mclaren and thier website is very unorganized so I could not find a dealer I own a 458 now and I like the car so I will not be trading that in.

Has anyone on Fchat ever driven one? If yes how do they compare it to something they know or own from experience.

Thanks

Lee

 

These guys in Miami are the dealer.

http://www.thecollection.com/

No one has driven the car yet. Not even the press.

 

Thank you for the website and dealer information. I will call them in a few days.

Thank you

Lee

 

Actually, Autocar has. They are embargoed from publishing anything till 2/14. They let one stat slip out, though.

 

The press has already driven the car. The media embargo gets lifted on Feb 14th.


Here's a little sneak-preview of things they will be sharing:

>8^)
ER

 

.....wow.

 

Yes, "wow" is pretty much what I said too.

This rate of acceleration doesn't stop at 'ahem' mph either. According to a user on Rennteam about the run to 200 kph (124.2 mph) :

That figure is also quicker than Autocar's F1 test from 1994 where it went 120 mph in 9.1 secs.

>8^)
ER

 

It is interesting to note that on the other "458 vs 12C" thread, there is a debate over the value of the (often misspelt) McLaren brand. And yet, the car that many use as a benchmark of supercar performance is the McLaren F1. I'm sure that it is the F1 that is driving expectations of the 12C.

The 458 is better looking and a fantastic car, but I'll bet the 12C will be a great drive too.

 

Enormous costs aside, I'd much rather have an F1 than the new, even quicker MP4-12C. Conceptually, the F1 more my kind of sports car. Similarly, I'd also rather have an F50 than a 458. That said, the new models are extremely impressive cars.

 

Of course you would,so would I.
It also helps that F1 is on average worth as much as 10 Mp4-12Cs and F50 about 3 458s (roughly).

 

I'm sure most people would agree with you. To state the obvious, the F1 and F50 were both engineered designed with few (if any) constraints for daily use. In fact, the F1 was designed specifically to maximize the performance of a street-legal (but not practical) package, using the technology available at the time. Hence, its performance, even by today's standards is phenomenal. I believe some of this design philosophy finds its way into the 12C, such that McLaren intends to vault the car to the very top of the performance charts for its class - its class being $250-300K supercars that can be "driven every day". Whereas Ferrari has the commercial success and brand recognition to do just enough in the performance aspect, McLaren seems intent on pushing the envelope to maximize the performance available for the price in this class. Hopefully, they succeeded.

 

Some say that the future 458 Spider will have the same weight that the actual 458!
And so, then, the 458 will be lighter... ??

 

I know this is going to sound crazy to the Tifosi but IMHO McLaren as a company is basically like Ferrari of the 1950's. They build few cars for the customer market and mainly focused on racing. They are a small independent firm run by one crazy CEO(sound familiar). I can't wait for the MP4-12C. I just wish they picked an easier name for it.

 

I am actually disappointed by both the 458 and MP4-12C as complete porkers for the technology and price point. Back in '08 when I considered trading my G against a new F car or Lambo and had to catch my breath at the depreciation, I ran over to a Chevy Dealer and bought a new Z06 and kept the additional $40K + I would have had to spend to trade my G. So I can pose in the G and drive the Z06, which I still love over 2 years later.

I bet an optioned MP4-12C with fuel and fluids in it (they love to quote useless "dry" weight) will be about as heavy as a Z06. That is pathetic against a body-on-frame car with a pushrod V8 and pretty decent options (like heated power seats with integral aribags, Nav, etc).

Obviously the consumer wants flash and comfort more than performance, which is a real waste of tech and carbon fiber.

And now Lotus is going to build bloated poseur cars, too.

I sure wish someone would come to market with a 2500 lb supercar. Maybe that is just impossible when you build it with noise reduction, comfort options, and size to fit the NFL player or obese American who is going to buy it.

 

I believe these are the cars that will be featured in the test.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Well, not quite. Enzo built cars to be able to afford to go racing. McLaren is in no way relying on 12C sales for them to do the same. They're doing it to add money to the bottom line. Enzo's car HAD to sell -- or he would go out or business. That's a pretty strong incentive to build some interesting product for the rich and famous.

Just one look at McLaren's pretentious design center makes you understand that Ron Denis and Enzo Ferrari were in different worlds altogether.

 

I'm going to take a 'wait and see' attitude with the upcoming Lotus (Esprit). Hopefully, Lotus might surprise us.
Regarding all your above mentioned "comfort options": The simple thing to do is NOT order all that silly junk ! These are high performance cars, not video games; the way most of the people in the U.S.A. load them up with extraneous options, is it any wonder that these cars become 'bloated porkers' ??

 

I hear you - I'm bummed about the Lotus direction, too. I have a stripped out Exige Cup track car (roll cage but no passenger seat) that tips the scales at about 2000 lbs. Sad to see that they are just going to follow the herd now, but shareholders gotta eat, right?

That said, 2500 lbs in a full-size road car is a pretty tall order, I think, by today's safety standards. Even the Gumpert Apollo is ~2700 lbs I think, and it is barely street legal and super-cramped inside. The F40 is around 2700 as well, is it not? And there isn't much to that car (structure-wise).

I still have a C6 Z that is pretty much a dedicated track car and yeah, it feels pretty light although I've never been able to understand the accuracy GM's quoted dry/curb weight numbers. With a fiberglass body and balsa floor, though, they sure did save a lot of weight - although I doubt these features are marketable on a quarter-mill supercar.

I think to get much beneath 2800lbs dry weight, you would need to make the 12C's body completely out of carbon or composite materials, plus do all the other Jenny Craig measures for a Scud-type version (i.e. no carpets, lightweight seats, etc.). McLaren did explore the carbon/composite body, but decided that they could spend that money (or rather, the customer's money) elsewhere and achieve a better ratio of weight saved per dollar. For example, the hydraulic suspension, the brake steer setup (lighter than an e-diff), etc.

Perhaps the 12C "Scud" will get down to a 2600-2700lb dry weight if they build it. Definitely, I would expect the true McLaren F1 successor car to get into that range, if not even lighter.

 

Agreed, but I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Ron has stated his reason for McLaren Automotive is to secure the long-standing survival of McLaren as an F1 Constructor for many years into the future, an idea that he openly credits to observing Ferrari's success and therefore their resources to withstand the "bad times".

 

If Ferrari, Lotus, and McLaren listened to what people on Fchat wanted in a super car, they'd go out of business.

If people on Fchat built the perfect super car it would

Look like a 308 or 355 or a some combination of the two (of which there would still be arguments) and still stick to the ground at 280 MPH like glue
Weigh less than a Caterham super 7
Be smaller than a Lotus Europa yet comfortably fit a 6 foot 5 inch 300 lb man
Be built 100% out of Carbon Fibre and Titanium
Have a motor twice as powerful as the Bugatti Veyron (but without turbos)
Have no electronics of anykind
Have a 6 speed manual gearbox but have a clutch that never wears out
Be offered only in Red and Black
Cost the same as a 308
Be sold for 20 grand under MSRP
Have a 20 year warranty
Have steel brakes that perform like CCB's but cost as much as a Honda's brakes would to replace.
Have an exhaust sound like a combination of an F1 car, an Enzo an F40 placed side by side
Be restricted to only a few hundred examples made a year --but have no waiting lists
Have a written guaranteed resale value that's 20% higher than they bought it.

 

LOL!! for sure!