458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

Koenigsegg, Pagani and SSC seem to be the only 3 automakers I can think of perhaps even Spyker that give me that jaw dropping feeling that I'm afraid to say that I just don't feel anymore for Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mclaren etc... Yes the 458 is so refreshing and the new Mclaren looks interesting to see no doubt, but come on next to a Pagani?

The effort in building something so unique and so fresh as I can see is being lost by the regular players. Personally if it wasn't for the 458 I would say Ferrari has lost it's ways, but now maybe just maybe they realize the playing field has changed immensely and need to look at the company's past to rekindle what has been lost in their modern day road cars. Hopefully the 458 is the start of a new beginning for Ferrari.

 

Agree with every words, the bean counters are raping this brand good and proper. You won't find many who agree around here, though. I tried this line in a thread here a while back and got thoroughly shouted down. Seems most Ferrari owners are more than happy with Ferrari roller coaters and fake ignition keys. Go figure.

 

Ok, I'm going to agree with you here. But, once again, you miss the entire point about why MOST people buy exotics --- maybe not you and maybe not those who truly appreciate a great sports car -- but many.

Most (at least in the US), don't give a HOOT about F1 racing or Ferrari's racing heritage. Most have no idea which model F1 car raced in 1972. Most could care less if they win another championship-- ever. It won't stop them from selling cars. 99.99% don't know or care there's a Ferrari theme park in Bahrain or can even point out where Bahrain is on a map.

In the UK, Europe, and Asia... I'm sure its different. But in the US the following of F1 is so small the newspapers give about a one inch mention of who won the Championship as it's contribution for the entire season. More adult people watch cartoons on Sunday morning than Speed's F1 races. I'm not kidding here.

So, what's the facination with Ferrari? Why do they want them and buy them?

Because what most people like about Ferrari is the look, the sound, the imagery, the speed, the power, and the fantasy of their STREET CARS over the years, not the racing cars. And, not of today, but of their youth.

When we talk about passion, it's not the connection to racing. It's the connection to their childhood. That's just not going to happen with a McLaren. If you gonna spend $300K on your first exotic car, it's going to be a Ferrari, Lambo, or Aston Martin first -- and everyone else later no matter how good it will be.

That's all we are saying. It's not that easy to bump them off this pedistal no matter how good a new car you make. History has shown this over and over.

The McLaren may be one of the most fantastic machines ever made. Great! Good for them! I'm sure Ferrari will react as they have with Lambo and others in the past. And, I'm sure in their reaction even more people on Fchat will complain that they are reacting...

But, just because McLaren makes a better car doesn't mean it will be successful in the US in the sales department. It might, and it might not. But it is no guarantee.

In short, the 12C MUST blow the doors off the 458 or it has no reason for being. Anything less than astonishing will be a disappointment.

 

They ALL do it. You're just upset that Ferrari does it better than most. They do it better than most because--- they can.

 

Well summarized. The first Ferrari I bought was the one that reminded of me my youth- in fact, the exact car. Yet, here I sit, a few years later with some more money to spend and my loyalties have swayed. By becoming part of the Ferrari community (and I'm talking everything from my local dealer to F1 races, customer racing programs, FCA events, etc.), over the past few years I've been exposed to a lot of great things, but a lot that has turned me off, too.

So, I do see the basis for your arguments. But I think sometimes you give too much credit to Ferrari's unassailability. I'm not claiming that McLaren will knock Ferrari off its pedestal. But if I go through with the 12C purchase, that will be a sum of money that Ferrari failed to garner from me. Even if I am the minority, all else being equal, that is still money that they would rather have for themselves.

And yes, I reserve the right to change my opinion of McLaren in the future, too. Maybe I'll buy one of those other cars- you know, the ones with brands that are too shrouded in obscurity so that there isn't even a point in making them! [sarcastic]

 

I don't care what they all do. And no, I'm not upset because they do it better (in fact, not even upset). But what's to stop Ferrari, one day, ending up as the Gucci of the car world...

 

Oh, trust me, I have a lot of things I blast them for. Option pricing is one of them. One great thing about the 12C is that the cost of CF and other accessories is about half of what Ferrari charges. I'm still upset about their pricing of everything from CCB's to Daytona seats to shields.

I've said this many times in this thread. I'm very happy McLaren is making this car. I think we live a golden era of super cars. I believe it may be their swan song as within 5 years, new regulations, restrictions, costs, and fuel issues may render them obsolete. The Mp4-12C may end up being the high point.

And, I believe this car will raise Ferrari's game in a good way. It will expose their weaknesses like any good competitor will do. Weaknesses in customer service, in technical achievment, in driving enjoyment, in reliability and in ways we don't even know yet.

But, I don't believe it's a Ferrari-killer. We've heard this before. The last time was the Ford GT. Ford made a darn good 360 Modena fighter -- great looks, performance, service costs low, American made, etc, etc AND a lot cheaper to buy. It sold about 3500 of them, and all the while sales of the 360 still soared in the same period.

Then, Ford pulled the plug. The problem? It was too much work for the payoff.

Designing and building a super car is one thing. Getting the public to want to buy it after all the initial buzz is over is another. Making money on it depends on that happening.

 

Okay, well we are somewhat on the same page so I will bow out of the thread for the day... need to get back to work or else I won't be able to afford either car

Thanks everybody, for the sparring. Have fun!

 

Because what most people like about Ferrari is the look, the sound, the imagery, the speed, the power, and the fantasy of their STREET CARS over the years, not the racing cars. And, not of today, but of their youth.

+1

 

.....it's far from 'hideous'. Seeing the car in person makes one appreciate just how great a design it is. Both the 458 and the Mac have good and bad points in their design....but are both great looking cars. As for performance....I think the 458 is in for a surprise...

 

bdelp and fire_n_ice,
Great discussion! I would like to add that far too many Ferrari, Lambo buyers in the US are not car guys like most people here on Fchat and in many other car forums throughout the net. They buy the cars because their knowledge of cars is so limited that Ferrari and Lambo are the only Sports cars they know about; They don't buy these cars because of the performance, racing heritage, etc; They buy them because in their minds these are the greatest cars they know of to show off their wealth and prestige; to get chicks to admire them, etc. How does that work with Maclaren? I'll let you guyd discuss that possibility ;=)

 

Well, I agree with you about the North American buyer (I won't single out the U.S. since I live in Canada) being less informed about cars. Toronto is a very multicultural city and since I am always trying to strike up car-related conversations, I talk to a lot of Europeans (East & West), Russians, etc. Most of them are genuinely shocked at how little we know about the different brands of cars. However, I don't fault us for that. It is simply not our culture over here. As bdelp says, F1 is a fringe sport here, whereas it is massive in some parts of the world, like soccer(football!).

For sure, McLaren sees that exotic car sales in many parts of the world are actually accelerating despite the recent economic difficulties. As I said, from a profitability standpoint, Ferrari's commercial success is exactly what they are trying to duplicate. So, my point is not that McLaren is somehow different or more holy in their intentions, but that they are simply at an earlier point in their growth. I think there truly was "mystique" to the Ferrari brand decades ago when they made less cars and there wasn't clothing everywhere inundated with the logo. Of course I realize that they are more successful today so they did the right thing, from the company's standpoint. But, as a consumer, I can decide for myself which product and brand speaks to me. So yeah, I guess at the moment, I am more excited about McLaren.

 

I was at the Mercedes dealer the other day and all the buzz is that the SLS is faster than the 458.

So,,,....I guess Mclaren should be aiming for the SLS.

 

By what measure? I gather acceleration is comparable. Certainly, when Top Gear compared them there wasn't much difference. Top Speed will never be reached by the vast majority of customers - even those with access to the Autobahn. As to lap times around a twisty track, I should think the handling of the 458 would devastate the SLS.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Faster in a straight line only. The **** hits the fan if you turn the sterring wheel or apply the brakes. The car is very poorly balanced and it's underpinnings, ie: supension components and design, are rudimentary at best. Anyone can slap a big motor in a car. Go look at any US drag strip and see a big motored, straight-line-only brute tear it up.

 

Faster how? It doesn't really compare when it comes to out and out performance. Top Gear definitely made television with their "drag race." The SLS might be "poorly" balanced more for a fun sort of car. It's probably meant to do Clarkson-esqe powerslides everywhere.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/ferrari_458_italia-vs-mercedes_sls_amg.html

 

If its just speed that you're interested in, the Mc12 is already absolete..

Twin turbo V12 800 HP, all CF, 1200 kilo weight, 2 passenger (tandem) fully enclosed body


http://www.carpictures.com/Tramontana/-720hp-Bi-turbo-V12-Roadster-2008-07BQG584511717

The point is that anyone can build something to go faster. If you look at the Tramontana, the Mc12 should is already 3 years behind the times.

 

For 3 times the price. No, it cannot compete with the Mc.

 

Yes, but aren't you annoyed that some little guys from Spain can beat the mighty creation of the F1 team from England?

Personally, I could care less. And that's the entire point. It isn't speed that sells super cars. It isn't technology that sells super cars.

It's fantasy that sells super cars.

 

This is why most of the "shed" supercar companies (I'm not including McLaren in that category) go bust so quickly. Is the Noble M600 faster/lighter etc. yes, probably, but is Noble really a threat to companies like Ferrari?

 

No, not really. They cannot beat McLaren at all. Imagine what McLaren could build for three times the price. No need to actually dream too much: they built a competitive car like that...20 years ago. Technology-wise, right now nobody can beat McLaren, including Ferrari. The philosophy that performance/technology does not matter led Ferrari to their pile-of-turds period in the early 90's. They needed a Honda to show them the way. McLaren will be a much more formidable competitor.

 

Ok bdelp you are starting fade with this Tramontana analogy. The 12C has a very realistic chance of displacing several hundred sales this year in the segment (i.e. from Ferrari, Lamborghini, even Porsche) but this Spanish wing dingy will not. For a multitude of reasons, not only price. I understand the point you are trying to make, but you could definitely do it more elegantly!

Yes, I would see some "shed" players like Noble even taking some sales away. Moreso in Europe, of course. McLaren's dealer network and scope of business plan elevates them out of the shed category, however.

 

I think you have my point all wrong. There is no way that the Tramontana will beat the sales of anything. Of course I know that.

My point is that if you want to build a car that goes faster, a lot of people can do it. It's like an arms race. Where do you stop-- because the next step is just plain lunacy. To most people the F430 is crazy enough. The 458 is more than crazy enough and the 12C more than nuts.

If speed was the most important factor in buying an exotic, the resale value of all Ferrari's, Lambo's, Aston Martin, and other cars would be half of what they are now. Why would you want to be seen in a "slow" car?

Ok, the Mp4 is faster than the Italia. But an 430 is faster than a 360 and a 360 is faster than a 355 and a 355 is faster than a 348.... etc, etc. Yet people still buy these "slower" cars knowing that they can get a faster one for not that much more.

That's my point. It's not speed that makes the decision to buy. There's a ton of factors, speed and performance only being one of them -- and often not that important.

The Mp4 MUST be faster than the Italia -- by a lot -- or it has no reason for being. Look at it this way: Would we even be talking about it if it wasn't?

 

Apparently Chris Harris has driven the Mclaren already and article is allowed to be published Monday in the UK in Evo according to today's email newsletter. Will be interesting to hear what the best motor journalist in the world thinks about the car. His comments on 458 vs GT3 RS were interesting for us all but he told me when the Scud came out "If price weren't the issue, I'd have a black Scuderia with gold wheels. If price was the issue I'd take a white GT3 RS" which I thought was good advice....

 

My hunch is that the collective journalist opinion will be something to the effect of "devastatingly quick, not as fun to drive as the 458".

We know McLaren is aiming to reset the bar for performance. I just think the hydraulic suspension (while perhaps providing for great lateral grip) won't be as drift-friendly.