458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

Go back a few years.....

Ford shows up with the Ford GT. Beautiful, fast, easy to maintain, less cost than a Ferrari 360 coupe and much less than the F430. Buy it at your local Ford dealer without the hassle. Made by Ford... one of the biggest names in the Auto Industry. Great racing heritage too.

A Ferrari killer, no? Everyone said it would be...

Well, in fact, no. Ford built as many cars as it wanted and then stopped while at the same time Ferrari sold as many 360's and F430's as it could. The market for 2 seater super cars doubled in that period.

The 12C may in effect do the same thing. I hope it does. I hope it is successful. I think it's a marvelous machine.

But, it's still a McLaren, as Lotus is still a Lotus and an Aston Martin is an Aston Martin and a Porsche is a Porsche.

To a lot of people, that matters. And, Ferrari knows it.

 

The Ford analogy seemed a little far fetched.

 

You had me until that statement. How can you say that? The MP4-12C(GAWD I wish they would change the name!) has a CF tub! The last great car to have that was the Carrera GT(the SLR doesn't count IMHO). However CGT's shell is known to be quite "delicate". The MP4's tub has been reported to be extremely stiff yet durable. Other special aspects include the radically different approach to LSD and front/rear Suspension. It's dry weight is ridiculous for a modern day car. The F458 weighs ~3450 lbs! The MP4 should be atleast 375 lbs. lighter based on the Mclaren data. That in a package that has more HP/TQ AND a lower price than a F458! 0 - 100 MPH in 6.1 secs - That is plain crazy!

It appears that the buyer of the MP4 gets supercar performance for 458 price. How can anybody who consider themselves to be a true car guy not be blown away by this car's specs?

 

Why? It's fact. Both sold well at the same period. What's so far fetched in stating fact?

 

Did you see the drag race between f430 and Italia Top Gear put on last summer? Do you remember how overmatched f430 looked? F430's 0-200 (or 124 mph) time is 12 sec. Italia's is 10.4. 1.6 sec difference. Now you have Italia sitting in the place of overmatched f430: 1.5 sec behind McLaren.

 

I'm talking about the average buyer of an exotic. Sure, the specs are impressive. Would we even bother talking about it if it wasn't?

Yes, the gearheads on Fchat will love it. The people who have 5 Ferrari's will think it's a great addition to their collection. Those bored with owning a Ferrari will think it's cool. Some speculators may think it's going to be the next F1 and buy it for that. Some Ferrari haters will think it's a great replacement for a Lambo. Those who just want to be seen as unique than their neighbor's Ferrari or Lambo will want one.

But, for most, will it really be the one you lust after? I don't think so.

0.2 seconds faster to 60 doesn't mean much to most. 10 seconds faster around Nuremburg means little to a guy driving down the 405 in rush hour.

 

You're right, those specs are incredible, but I didn't see those figures in the test (I know it was only a first drive). So from what we are seeing so far I don't think it blows the Italia away. It was a newspaper review, I didn't read much into 458 reviews by newspapers either. If indeed that becomes the case then yes it will be a major performance gap, but of course there will be a gap like that, it's been over a year that the 458 has been introduced.

 

Average exotics buyer will have one look at Italia getting destroyed by McLaren in a drag race and decide to save money by buying f430. Still a Ferrari, Cheaper and also slow .

 

Well, no, we don't know how real those numbers are. Typically, high end exotics makers tend to be conservative in their estimates. Ferrari's official 0-200 is 10.4, for example. Maybe, McLaren is trying to make a splash and they are stretching the truth a bit. It would be very stupid for them to do, but it's not impossible. I doubt it, though.

 

It's probably realistic, and it would make perfect sense as McLaren delayed the launch of this car after the 458 was released. They had a lot of time to perfect their performance and "one up" the Italia. Again, it's an arms race.

 

Ummmm.... I don't think so

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313312


I bet if you asked Lambo or Aston Martin owners, the results would be worse when it comes to speed vs looks vs branding.

 

But, the problem I see for Ferrari is that matching McLaren will not be easy at all. Getting the weight down and keeping the luxury would be very hard given the underlying technology. Packing on power might result in another overpowered pig having a hard time putting its power down (I am looking at you "GTO"). On the other hand, ferrari will always keep (I hope) the advantage of N/A.

 

Let's wait and see what happens when Ferrari are not considered the pinnacle of performance anymore. I do think it will hurt the brand. It might take some time, but if entry level mcLaren's keep convincingly beating all Ferraris, including top-shelf exotics, it's gonna be a problem.

 

I don't think the weight will be that much of an issue really, it's only a 50 kg difference. Another performance benefit for the 458 will be stickier tires, the standard version came with a harder rubber compound. Yes the aluminum is older tech but the 458 has a lot that could be taken out, more so than the Macca IMO

 

No, the difference in weight will not be 50kg. The mythical Italia of 1485 kg (3267 lbs) has not been seen in the wild by anybody. The lightest Us cars were close to 3500 lbs, the lightest Euro cars were at 3400lbs. If Macca is not lying (and so far they have been much more open about it than ferrari, which does not even list curb weight of Italia), the difference will be 300-500 lbs. This cannot be overcome without a massive reengineering of the car.

 

Krzys,
Man, if you hate Ferraris so much, why don't you go hang out on the McLaren web site?
I happen to think the mcLaren is a great car, but these small gaps in performance numbers will never be realized on the street.
There are plenty of people now that have lots of different Marques in their garage but still drive their Dino or other car that isn't on the top of the performance sheets.
If these little upgrades in performance mean so much then be prepared to sell your cars every year or so because there will always be something a little bit quicker.
I don't know how people can get so aggressive on a one car community web site like this.
It has nothing to do with anything you did other then write a check.
You're not even subscribed on here.

 

Again, until we get full details we won't know. However I don't think the said weight difference will be as massive as believed

 

So now in order for your opinion to be valid here you have to give Rob $15. Hmmm...

By that logic everyone who is Rosso subscribed is like ****ing E. F. Hutton.

>8^)
ER

 

The McLaren could spank the snot out of a Veyron and I'd still go for an Italia. You can magazine drag race all day, but it doesn't make the McLaren any less bland to look at. I'm sure the looks will appeal to many, and the performance certainly will as well. But unless you're constantly street racing, the performance of these cars are about nearly equal as far as everyday drivability is concerned.
In the end, the Italia gets the nod because it's infinitely better looking and has more than enough power and performance.

 

I don't hate Ferraris. I have had two and I love my scud. When Italia came out and I saw the specs I was very disappointed, though. I thought the overall idea of the car was/is a mistake. When my dealer called with allocation, I said: no. Eventually, he convinced me to test-drive it and I was very impressed: felt light, playful, responsive and sounded great. I specced the car and it was drop-dead gorgeous. I was about to order it, but I could not pull the trigger. The car is just not special enough. Ferrari decided to push a different boundary. I am still not 100% sure of the decision, though. That's why I am arguing with you guys. I am not attacking you. I am torn myself to some degree and Ferrarichat is the perfect forum, b/c many of us here buy those cars for the same reasons that I do. I am just not totally sure what they are .

 

It's gonna be real interesting when the Press
releases its reviews later today.
I bet it Rocks

 

I'll agree you haven't been too snarky

I still think I want my stable right now to be a 458 and FF. Call me crazy

 

Looks like it does indeed rock.*


http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results/First-drives/McLaren-MP4-12C-supercar-CAR-review-2011/










*Caution: UK reviewers can be over-enthusiastic towards UK-made products.

 

Understatment of note.....didnt you know any sports car made in the UK is perfect!

 

Like Evora winning car of the year all over the UK last year. That was just laughable.