Mike Sheehan takes another stab at the 400i

I feel your pain but both the 400 series and the Mondial have unique styling that you either love or hate.

 

Here is an ad for a 412 Sheehan was selling back in 2009. No hypocrisy though. Still, it is surprising that he would even sully his reputation by selling one!

"We are pleased to offer 1986 412 Automatic s/n 64307. We seldom sell 412s but s/n 64307 is one of the nicest 412s we have been asked to sell in years. Unusually nice Black Nero 1240 paint over a very straight body. The interior is very nice tan leather with clean and soft leather, but with some dye work. The dash, the dash cover and console leather are unusually nice, with no discoloration, shrinkage or splitting. Has an excellent headliner, plastic trim and carpets. This 412 has only 19,218 miles and looks and drives like a near–new 412. Mechanically excellent, this Ferrari had four new Michelin TRX 240/55VR 415 tires and new front and rear brake pads in the last 1,350 miles. A/C serviced, all fluids changed and brake Master cylinder replaced, October, 2008 for $3,723.42. New battery, fuel distributor and self leveler rebuilt, September, 2009 for $2,193.84. All switches, gauges and accessories are fully operational, including the often troublesome electronic window, bonnet and trunk switches. All four wheels, stainless and plastic trim, lenses and gaskets are all in excellent condition. The front US specification side–marker lights have been skillfully fitted into the bumper as to not detract from the lines of this Ferrari.

64307 has user–friendly dual front and rear A/C. The engine compartment is completely stock, original and nicely detailed, as is the trunk. Complete with the jack and jack bag, spare wheel and records for the recent ownership period. Both mechanically and cosmetically ready to enjoy, this is the perfect “Family Ferrari”. Priced very right at $29,500."

 

I think Sheehan has been quite consistent in his praise for the "Enzo" er acars and quite consistent in his derision of the "Fiat Era" cars- And I don't think ANYONE can disagree that the Enzo era cars are far more desirable for the "Collectors Market:.

Here's Sheehan on the 400/412-

"Budget Fiat-era V12s and Flat 12s

While most people dismiss the 365 GT/4 2+2, the “carby” 400 GT and the 5-speed 412 because of their bland styling, no one can deny that they offer more- than-adequate performance, tolerable air conditioning, a user-friendly cockpit and semi-useable rear seats, all for $25k to $35k. Prices are a bit less for those who prefer to go shiftless with the 400 or 412 Auto. And the good news is that they don’t have cam belts."

As far as criticizing the 365 GT/4 2=2 for it's "K-Car" or "GM" styling- remember Pininfarina introduced this look years prior to Detroit latching on to i- Just as the Daytona- derided as "bulbous" and "heavy" when introduced begat the 280Z and similar copycats.

Look- these cars are not yet old enough to even tip into the "Collectors' car market...Wait ten years an see how many Sheehan is peddling. Don't feel bad- he hates the 308s and 355s just as much.

 

I don't know - I'd bet Sheehan sticks with the Enzo era cars for a long time. The real money is in the vintage stuff. Everything else is kind of a niche, where we willfully ignore stupid service costs/value ratios and other facts in the name of a hobby.

 

Vintage is a moving target. Look at the prices of mid 70s Detroit Iron- bad cars from a bad era and hundreds of thousands were made- So bad that nobody kept them- the survivors are increasing in price rapidly.

Every year we lose more 400s and 412s- and they are distinctly period pieces- And while a mint 412 may always be worth less than a Daytona- i will bet that eventually the market reflects their rarity- not with million dollar prices- but maybe double to triple the current values.

Clean 308s routinely trade for more than 348s- and soon will be worth double- jus cause they are "classic".

 

I will start off by saying I am a very happy owner/driver of a 365 GT/4 2+2. So I speak from some experience on these cars. I believe Mr Sheehan shares the same overall opinion that most of North America has from the middle 1970's on about Ferraris. They are bought for the purpose of satisfying the metaphysical needs of their owners. They were and still are bought to impress others, to stroke the owners ego, the the flashier the better. This might be why Ferrari never bothered to federalize these cars for NA, and chose to market them to the rest of the world. The more astute europeans consumed over 520 something of these cars, while the so called "better" 365GTB/4 languished in american showrooms. (there were new daytonas left unsold, and still in the distribution network as late as 1978). The market for these cars are stronger and always has been, across the pond. Where they appreciate them for their restrained excellence.

 

http://ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?reqart=SCM_200708_SS



As appeared in:
Sports Car Market—August 2007 issue

Sheehan Speaks

by Michael Sheehan

Part I: More seats, less money. The early 2+2s
In the late 1950s, Aston Martin and Maserati found a very lucrative market niche supplying GT cars to owners who wanted to bring the occasional extra friend or children along for the ride. While Ferrari had built four–seaters with bodies by Ghia, Touring, and Vignale, they were compromised coupes, and so Ferrari, ever eager to pay the racing bills, built an all–new car from the ground up as a 2+2.


1963 250 GTEThe 250 GTE was introduced in October 1960 at the Paris Salon, an evolution of the highly successful 250 series. The traditional frame was lengthened, the engine was moved forward, and the rear track was widened, giving usable rear cabin space. The defining 2+2 supercar of its era, a factory test car went from a dead stop to 100 mph and back to rest in 25 seconds, topping out at just under 140 mph, with 0–60 mph in just over seven seconds. Thanks to the stretched coachwork, the 250 GTE bodylines were more fluid and sporting than its shorter 250 PF coupe brother

Indeed, the 250 GTE 2+2 was the best looking Ferrari 2+2, with classical lines not matched until the modern 456 GT and 456 M. Nothing else in its era could match the 250 GTE 2+2 for space, grace, and pace, ushering in a new era of what was, for Ferrari, high–volume efficiency and mass–marketing. Between 1960 and 1963, just over 950 250 GTEs were built at a rate of around six per week, making the GTE a huge commercial success.

The 250 GTE was followed by the 330 America, an interim model using the chassis and body of the Series III 250 GTE 2+2, fitted with the engine of the 330 GT 2+2, due to begin production in 1964. Only 50 were built, all in late 1963, and all over a period of about a month.

250 GTE: Problems, and on buying one
Any 250 GTE is on the wrong side of 40 years old, and all have suffered the ravages of time. Because of a complex and expensive–to–rebuild front suspension, an engine with poor casting quality and no valve guide seals, an overdrive that is a mystery to most mechanics, and the reality that every component on the car is well past its rebuild–or–replace date, the 250 2+2 has always been at the bottom of the 250 food chain. Rust–proofing was perfunctory at best, and so the 250 GTE was the donor car of choice through the late 1980s, with hundreds parted out to become 250 replicas of one sort or another. Owners tend to put off service work that over time becomes a study in deferred maintenance. What should be a $5,000–$10,000 service once every few years is put off for years and becomes a $25,000–plus deferred maintenance bill.

A project car is worth $75,000, yet the best on the planet would struggle to bring $145,000, making the search for the right car difficult, as the restoration needed to make a rough car into a show car is the same for a 250 GTE as it is for a 250 SWB. Very few owners have been dedicated (or foolish) enough to fully restore a 250 GTE, and so almost all have serious deferred maintenance issues, making the 250 GTE, and indeed all of the classic 2+2s, the poster children for a detailed pre–purchase inspection.

330 2+2 four headlight: PF misses the boat

1966 330 2+2 Series IThe 330 2+2 was introduced in 1964 at January’s annual Ferrari press conference. Replacing the well–styled and best–selling 250 GTE would be a difficult task, and being built alongside the svelte 275 GTB and attractive 500 Superfast did little to help explain the 330 2+2’s bland styling. The twin–headlight nose was ugly and the rear body was simply formless. The new 4–liter engine gave a very healthy 300 hp at 6,600 rpm, enough to take the 330 GT from 0–60 mph in just 6.3 seconds, with a top speed of 150 mph. The 4–speed with overdrive from the 250 GTE was used until the spring of 1965, when it was replaced with a 5–speed gearbox. A total of 509 Series I 330 2+2s were built, with the last 119 all fitted with the new 5–speed box.

330 2+2 two headlight: A better package

1965 330 2+2 Series IILaunched in mid–1965, the Series II 330 GT featured a more attractive two–headlight design and a long list of updated features. The 5–speed was now standard, and a fiberglass floorpan eliminated much of the rust problem of the earlier cars. Power steering and air conditioning were also offered as extra cost options. Mid–way through production, Ferrari replaced the four–mount block with a new casting that had two engine mounts. Production continued until autumn 1967, by which time 460 examples had been completed. Total production for the 330 GT was 1,088.

330 GT 2+2: Problems, and on buying one
The problem list on the 330 mirrors the 250 GTE–deferred maintenance and the reality that any major work is equal to half the value of the car. Pay $45,000 for a “driver” Series I project car, spend $150,000 to restore it, it’s worth $85,000. Pay $45,000–$55,000 for a “driver” Series II car, spend $150,000 to restore it, it’s worth $100,000, making the 330 2+2s the bad math cars.

365 GT 2+2: Pininfarina hits the mark

1970 365 GT 2+2Launched in October 1967 at the Paris Salon, the 365 was well received and continued Ferrari marketing success with evolving 2+2 models. The 365 GT was clearly inspired by the GTC Speciale and Ferrari’s 500 Superfast, resulting in a nicely cohesive but overly large design. The imposing rear overhang made the 365 GT 2+2 the longest car Ferrari had ever made, earning the nickname “Queen Mother.”

The 365 GT featured a fully independent self–leveling rear suspension, air conditioning, electric door windows, electric vent windows, and power steering. The 365 delivered 320 hp, with a top speed of 152 mph and a 0–60 time of 7.3 seconds. Production ended in early 1971 with 801 365 2+2s built.

365 GT 2+2: Problems, and on buying one
The potential deferred maintenance issues on the 365 GT 2+2 mirror the earlier 2+2 problems, although rust is not a serious problem on these later Pininfarina–built cars. Pay $60,000 for a “driver” pay over $100,000 for the best.

365 GT4 2+2: Bland but fast

1973 365 GT4 2+2Launched at the October 1972 Paris Salon, the 365 GT4 2+2 offered impressive performance and comfort for four adults but, as the predecessor to the 400 and 412, suffered from the same bland styling. While the GT4 sat on the longest wheelbase of any Ferrari, the overall length was still seven inches less than the “Queen Mother.” With 340 hp, the 4–cam GT4 was the world’s fastest four–seater with a top speed of 155 mph and a 0–60 time of just 6.4 seconds. The GT4 2+2 was by far the most spacious 2+2 yet produced by Ferrari, giving an airy interior for front and rear passengers. When GT4 production ended in late 1976, 521 cars and three prototypes had been built.

400 GT and GTA: Going shiftless

1978 400 GTLaunched in October 1976 at the Paris Salon, the 400 was an immediate success, despite doubts over the option of an automatic transmission. The 400 GT was little changed from the 365 GT4, with the major changes in the engine, now 4.8 liters, although power stayed at 340 hp. The 3–speed auto box worked well around town, although the lack of two extra gears hurt top end performance and top speed. Many questioned Ferrari offering an automatic transmission, but nearly two of every three 400s were automatics. Production ended in mid 1979, with 353 GTs and 770 automatics built.

400i: Injection is added

1980 400iBecause of tighter emissions laws, Ferrari introduced a fuel–injected 400 in 1979 that could be modified to meet stricter rules. The 400i engine was noticeably smoother and more refined but at a loss of 30 hp. Power was down to 310 hp and top speed below 150 mph. Production of the 400i ended in early 1985 after the debut of Ferrari’s 412. However, the 400i was another commercial success for Ferrari, with 427 GTs and 886 automatics built over six years.

412: The best of the bland

1986 412Launched in March 1985 at the Geneva Salon, the 412 enjoyed an engine size increase from 4.8 to 5 liters, and power was up by 25 to 340 hp. The 412 continued Ferrari tradition on building the planet’s fastest 2+2, with a top speed of 155 mph and 0–60 under seven seconds. Production ended in 1989, after 303 GTs and 226 automatics were built.

The 365 GT4, 400, and 412 Ferraris are all 18 to 34 years old and have been at the bottom of the Ferrari V12 2+2 food chain for decades. The electric buttons that open the hood, trunk, and gas door fail regularly. Given the car’s low ride height, speed bumps can flatten the exhaust. If you notice an oil mist on your windshield, it means the front oil cooler is cracked and you will soon run out of oil, and the list goes on…. As for long term appreciation or building “sweat equity” by slowly restoring one, I can assure you that Ferrari mechanics, parts suppliers and restoration shops do not discriminate; all parts and labor are equally expensive, regardless of the market value of your Ferrari.

Ask for a detailed pre–purchase inspection. Most will easily find $10,000–plus in deferred maintenance and/or recommended work, hard to justify with a 365 GT4 or 400 worth $20,000 to $35,000 and a 412 worth $35,000 to $45,000. The 365 GT4–400–412 are the cheapest V12 rides but also really bad–math cars, should you buy a bad one.

I’ve owned and driven every model in this market summary and have to opine that my favorite is the 365 GT4 or 400 GT 5–speed, as these are seriously fast cars, with a great exhaust sound and amenities like power windows, power steering, and a/c that work adequately. In the mid–1970s I was able to make a high–speed run from Phoenix to Newport Beach in only five hours, running at a steady 125 across the desert in my 365 GT4, a feat that would certainly guarantee a trip to jail today. I’m glad I’ve lived at a time these cars could be used as Ferrari intended.

All of the above were great cars when they left the factory, and if you find a properly restored one, they are still great cars and decent buys today. But be forewarned that buying a car with needs, or a project car, will create a situation that tries your patience, empties your bank account, and makes you regret you ever went down this path. Buy smart, spend more up front, be happy.

MIKE SHEEHAN has been a Ferrari broker and racer for 30 years. He has raced in the Mazda Pro Series and the Trans Am Series as well as IMSA GTO and IMSA Camel–Lite, with three separate drives in the 24 Hours of Daytona.

 

The atricle above seems to be quite measured, and from one who knows what he's talking about. Over in the UK we have Jeremy Clarkson and his mates at Top Gear, both a TV show and a glossy mag. They hate any Ferrari that doesnt retail over 100K, and regularly make rude comments about Mondials and 400. In his introduction to the 458, our Jeremy ran a retrospective of past Ferraris, ending with Quote And the 400 was just awful in every way Unquote. Just to help the market along, a few weeks later in the mag, there was a page on 'Crap Supercars' and yes, you guessed it, there was the 400!

Only saving grace is, these guys take pleasure in upsetting everybody and nobody takes them seriously! For real values and appreciation, you have to go to mainland Europe.
Another problem we have in the UK is lack of space. Lots of cars are not even garaged year round, some lucky ones spend the winter indoors, some even dont get the chance!
So they rot, get botched repairs, electrics go funny and then become truly awfu!
Vicious circle.
I love the anonimity of it.Nobody cuts me up or calls me a Merchant Banker ( Rhyming slang}, and i can enjoy my car without hassle. People praise the Fiat 130 Coupe, yet they are not nice to our 400. Bizarre!

 

Astutely stated. Almost as if you were describing them as "old money."

 

agree with your sentiments , i went to see a 400 on Friday and near it was a 130 Coupe. I like them alot and they look good, but side by side (almost) they definately aren't as stylish (130 seems taller, more square) as a 400. I think the reason its praised Is because its a big "super Fiat" so it stands out in the Manufacturers range. Where as the 400 was the supposedly "understated odd one out" in its Manufacturers range.

 

Simple solution: Take the Ferrari badges off the 400 and add Fiat badges .

Regards,

Art S.

 

I've argued with Sheehan over his entire philosophy. While he may possibly be right, he's got so much vested interest in his theory that he can't acknowledge that he might be wrong. I certainly think he has some valid thoughts about the Enzo v. Fiat v. Montezemolo "eras", but I do disagree with his framework from time to time. Don't be afraid to challenge his opinion. It's just a theory.

CW

 

I'm old and entitled to my opinion, so here it is. I've been in the collector car business longer than most of these self styled clowns have been alive. I for never one pay attention to their self serving ramblngs. Who cares what dribble they spout. Its only to embelish their own self important egos. In 50 plus years I've seen so many of these claimed to be experts crash and burn.

I own a 400i for the fun and enjoyment of the car, not because some bozo tells me its a good or bad investment. These semi intelegent hucksters are much like the 1st time stock broker pushing the new hottest trendy stock, anything for the commision. If the 400 became a hot commodity they would be the first ones to be touting the benfits of ownership If the 400 series became the hot new trendy Ferrari they would be the first to tell you what a special and incredible vehicle they are, and have a showroom full of bright shinny 400's to pawn off on uneducated buyers.

So we as owners already know what they don't, the 400 series is the best rides Ferrari ever produced. More than enough power, speed, looks, and incredible ride. I for one think they are missing the pleasure of owning and driving a really great and fun Ferrari. So who really cares what they think or tell others.

Howard Musolf
1981 308gtsi
1982 400i Cabriolet
Maserati spider
1987 lotus Esprit Turbo
2 damn many brass era cars

 

I paused and looked at a him in the eye and asked for a proper honest opinion of the 400 series. The man I was directing this question to has many years experience in driving, V12 engine rebuilds restoration tuning etc etc on everything from 250s to Dinos, to modern cars the whole range of ferraris production has passed through his workshop.

He said 'The 400 is really a very good car indeed compared alongside other Ferraris and all Ferraris are great cars'

 

This picture speaks for itself Mr. Sheenen who is he ? a trader is never an authority on cars since somebody with love and passion for Ferrari can never be a trader
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

a 400, in motion and mixing it up with modern 'traffic' on today's roads, is a visually stunning shape...absolutely beautiful, perfectly poised and proportioned.
they just hover and float like nothing else...and that most definitely includes other Ferrari's...particularly the 2+2's that preceded them, pretty as they are.

of course my TR easily out performs it...in precisely the same way my 400 blows the doors off a 250 GTE...so what ?

i challenge anyone to deride a proper running 365 GT4 2+2, 400GT, 400i, provided they have an understanding of it's intent...and a basic understanding of cars...

 

I like the 400.

Shoot me.

 

Any suggestions on how to get a Euro 400i to pass Colorado emissions? lol that my project for today....

 

after the C/4, these were the "eccentric man's option" /choice when faced with your "Father's" choice of rides...

The Mercedes 300SEL "6.3"-the world's FASTEST Sedan-(these would run circles around a 365 gt/4, if it wasn't lying on it's belly on the floor! In perspective, it was a SOHC, mech/direct injected, "383 CID" flame thrower)-and by the mid to late '70s, it was the successor: the 450SEL "6.9"-which was actually a far better ride, but MUCH slower, less nimble, and all around 'not as cool' as a "6-3"...
However, 6-9s had gobs-o-torque(an M/B, SOHC, CIS injected, "427 CID"!)..but it was just an uninspired ride...see 400iA...

A 400GT was a VERY different sort of a car for the era for which it was intended and built...
the FIRST oil embargo...had already passed!!!

There are two distinct issues which are being confused here..
one is the "practical dollars," application of time, effort, and funds...on a car which, while minteresting-and fun as hell to drive...'all the time, and almost everywhere'-was intended in THAT time frame to be driven by wealthy-NO...by RICH,(and a tad eccentric) RICH men...{and, FRANKLY, by today's norm...(note his comment on parts , labor, etc...in TODAY'S world), by RICHER men...if it is intended that THE CAR IS TO BE USED CURRENTLY, IN THE MANNER FOR WHICH IT WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED AND INTENDED... as oppossed to a hanger queen, kept and worshiped, as if some sort of talisman...

These are NOT simple and uncomplicated Ferraris, as say... a 330 2+2 might be considered...to the contrary, these were easily, the MOST sophisticated, and complex, mechanically speaking, production/street cars which Ferrari/FIAT had ever ventured to manufacture in meaningful quantities.

the second would be the aesthitics..a highly subjective venue...if one were weel heeled to the degree that the enormity of the expenses were of NO CONSEQUENCE what-so-ever, and were so inclined, well sure, these are great cars... and damn the torpedoes!
There is another hue to this "class" of automobile...
This would be the automotive, 'metaphor equivalent' to when my son asked me:
"Why I could by a Bentley V12 turbo, with 6500 miles on it, that was perfect, and was a few years old, for less than 100K, when the car was WELL over a qurter of a million when new(actually, the case in point was closer to half a million...)...
the answer is: there exists almost NO secondary market for cars like these...the original owners, are/were fabulously wealthy, and are of a station in life wherein either these sorts of cars are kept, babied, and cherished over GENERATIONS, as money is simply NOT EVER AN ISSUE...
or...they asset is divested for the "newest/latest and greatest," as soon as the cars are made.
Enzo Ferrari, CHERISHED these sorts of customers..."buy them, when it needs a set of brake pads, time for a new one!" They just get thrown away, and nobody... at THAT station wants some other guy's "castoffs"...any guy who lives "local" at anyrate...IMHO...

That's why so many, low miles, mint, cars of this type-all in need of SUBSTANTIAL, "deferred"(OVERDUE!)maintenance issues-are available..
FWIW-caveat emptor...

 

yep turn the adjustment screw 1/4 to 1/2 half turn counter clockwise and have them sniff the tailpipe. It'll pass, it'll run $hitty, but it'll pass.

 

Isn't Mike just a used car salesman now? Who cares what he thinks.

 

yikes!

 

Sorry, it's been a long day, but still, who cares what some wag writes on these cars?

Go drive one, if you like it, buy it.

 

Uh yep! When writers start paying my way I'll drive what they pay for.