458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

I think the 'interesting' potential of this car is how it may feel in your hands. I know I used to think the Audi R8 was amazing( which I did about a dozen private track days with at Infinion in Ca.), even after I got my 458. Then I drove them back to back at Las Vegas Exotics and boy did that clue me in. The R8 went from super car to very average real quick compared to the 458. And I'm not talking speed or acceleration, just how it felt, how connected I was to the car and willing it was, it's balance, turn in, road feel, etc. I think this car may make you feel like a race horse, or an eagle. May sound silly, but that's what turns me on about great cars, how one you can get with it.

 

you are describing what many of us have been saying. a car is more than its tech, its 'numbers', its 'heritage',, etc. with cars at this extreme end, there has to be some kind of unique 'connection' that makes it special to YOU.

 

careful Bubba, we're about to fall off the deep end of this thread

 

Finally, a voice of reason. Very well said. And for some of us here, even though some of us are existing Ferrari owners, McLaren and its product are making that connection. To trivialize it, by claiming that we are just "statistic whores", is not accurate nor faithful to what is really going on.

 

Sutcliffe adds some additional direct comparison with 458 comments:

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=23175

 

Actually - that is my main concern about the car. How good is the driver/car interface. I.E. how engaging is the car? Is the MP4 going to be similar to a Ferrari/GT3 RS or is it going to be a GTR?

 

Is that what she tells you

 

Agreed.
McLaren is a fine, historic, product driven company and one I'd never trivialize.

And, honestly, the 12c is by all reports, a fantastic performance car.

But, it fails to connect with ME, and as you say, that's important--in fact, possibly the most important facet for any high performance car.

To start, I simply don't like its design--its use of deeply stylised side ducts is past its sell by date in modern design.

Its a "turbo". Yes, produces tremendous power p/cubic inch and they've been improved to where the T Lag is no really a factor. But its power still hits peak at 7k rpm versus 9k. The difference for me is important, as is the sound. I like NAspirated engines--with all their mechanical mashing about, and esp flat crank sounds that come with a ferrari revving between 6-9k. I wouldn't get that in the 12c.

Its doors are simply NOT practical. I'm sure they work well, and also sure they look good open but my wife/kids are NOT going to get into this car anywhere but a Sunday coffee car show without hating the "false" bling of scissor type doors. In fact, I still drive my performance cars now/again to the office, or occassionally even to the grocery/starbucks on a Sunday morning--I don't want to "arrive" in a car that screams full volume more when I open the door than when I drive up.

And finally, if my car has a problem--its gets serviced, in town, immediately. I simply am not interested in one which has to be shipped or someone scheduled to come to town to look it over AND then ship it somewhere, for however long, and then back.

Again, past practical.

So to your point--I'm not trivializing the McLaren, the 12c or its performance envelope. But, I'll stick with what I have--thank you very much--because it connects with me!

 

Connection is important and personal.

McLaren is going way out of their way to connect with customers and this additude is totally different that Ferrari's. IMO this is a very important real difference.

As for Turbo's this is the way it's going to be for several reasons (emmisions/requlations/fuel effieiency/weight savings) and IMO the next Ferrari Supercar will be TT.

I agree that the styling is fair at best and I'm amazed they didn't do better. If they had IMO this car would seriously impact Ferrari. In the future I bet they improve the looks and if their next supercar looks great it will be a REAL contender at the Highest End.

 

It is the crucial thing, but this is precisely where I feel 458 falls down. I track my Scuderia extensively so I have a very good baseline of what a joy a properly sorted car can be when pushed. I test-drove 458 only on the street, so my experience is limited, but even though it feels light and eager and I was quite impressed, it also has a sheen of artificiality about it. I don't think it's an accident either. Given the bulk it has to carry (500 lbs on the scud), it has to cover it up by ultra-quick steering and all the electronics to keep things in check. Again, these are just very first impressions and I don't know for sure, but reports from Forza and some members here who tracked both only confirm it.

That's why I have high hopes for the Macca. Its fundamentals are better, so it can afford to give direct access to the experience. However, it's not clear it actually does it.

 

Agree as to McLaren's "next gen" super car being a much more serious threat to Ferrari (and its NewZo)--surely its styling will be better, it performance world class and with a portfolio that McLaren knows must uphold the F1's tradition. And, since it'll be a "completely different" type vehicle than a 12c or 458--both as to expected use and overall panache--the issues with service and too much static bling shouldn't really be a factor either.

Surely, Ferrari must know what is on its horizon?

 

This looks like a good lap. Keep an eye on Jason Barlow's face - there's quite a few places where he's starting to look a little uncomfortable...

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/mclaren-mp412c-driven-2011-02-14

Scroll down for the video.

 

This car is very good news for all of us IMO.
If you love it you are going to buy it and you will enjoy it a lot.
If you don't love it it will still push Ferrari and all the other supercars makers to make their cars even better and probably their service too.

I agree with Napolis regarding the quality of the customer approach in general of McLaren compared to Ferrari....but they are far from perfect either. Have a look at an email I received from them in October. Maybe it's me but I find it very aggressive and they didn't follow up on the phone as they promise they would:

"As we have only just seen your details, I apologies that this email may cut straight to the point about the order process, but we do not have a lot of time left before production will be commencing and so need to move with a little bit of haste

Please see these notes below regarding the deposit process:
• You are formally invited you to place your initial £15,000 deposit for the MP4-12C to confirm your interest.
• Details for placing your deposit are available upon request.
• From the date we have price release, anticipated soon, we will announce a deadline to place your deposit by.
• We will hold the deposit window open for all those on our database for 5 weeks to ensure deposits are received.
• If you place your deposit before the deadline, your interest will be carried forward into the Order bank
• The Order bank will be calibrated by “date of first contact” with McLaren, not the date of deposit.
• This first deposit will remain refundable until a production slot is available.
• If you do not place your deposit by the deadline, your interest will remain within the expression of interest database
• Deposits received after the deadline will be placed in the Order bank as of the date your deposit is received, not your original date of first contact
• Christmas is our hopeful target for being able to confirm a numbered position for you within the Order bank.

Obviously there is a lot to discuss about the McLaren MP4-12C itself, the deposit process and perhaps other matters regarding your interest, so we will be endeavouring to call you personally over the next few days to talk over these details but in the meantime please do not hesitate to call us on the numbers set out below or email.
"

 

We shall see...

 

This looked like a ton of fun.

 

And likely you'll know more, before, the rest of us...

 

Fair points by all.

For my part, some of the reasons the 12C and McLaren ARE connecting with ME:

- The design philosophy: The form follows function principle resonates with me and I assign a high value to it. This encompasses the styling, as it is attractive to me and the purposefulness of every element on the car adds to that attraction. This is not an excuse - I genuinely value this, for this product.

- The performance: That McLaren has attempted to stretch the envelope and provide hypercar performance for supercar money is great. That they seem to have figured out how to make it more comfortable and accessible than any other hyper/supercar is amazing to me and also very attractive. I have several other cars that are slower (while still too fast for public roads) and quirkier or more shouty in their own right.

- The company: I assign value to the excitement of being part of a new venture. Whereas others would be embarrassed by somebody shouting "hey is that the new Ferrari", I would actually enjoy the opportunity to educate them on the car and the company. In contrast, I am jaded with the Ferrari brand and ownership experience at the moment, on a number of levels.

 

The most impressive thing about McLaren is the sense of purpose: yes, it's a luxury car. Yes, it rides great, but when it comes to performance, every part of the car's design is there to enhance it. There is no sense of BS about it. Now, the crucial thing will be how it connects with the driver: are you driving the car around the track or are you being taken for a ride ?

 

My hunch is that will depend on how good of a driver is behind the wheel. Since the performance envelope is so high, it will definitely take a track environment to even explore the potential for the average driver. If the car is capable of taking a 5th gear sweeper at 200km/h plus, but your balls run out at 180km/h, you may never feel like you are truly driving the car. I see some of this sentiment expressed in the journalists' early reviews. Granted, few of them had enough time with the car (and familiarity with the circuit) to work up to those grip levels. Even still, how many average drivers can maximize the performance available in a Veyron? The average guy can talk about being connected to the car all he wants, but when you get on a track and approach/exceed the limits of high speed grip, the word connection takes on a whole new meaning. Jenson Button certainly looked like he had no problem feeling connected to the 12C in those vids.

What is interesting about these early reviews is that many of the authors suggest that the average driver can effortlessly exceed what is even possible in the 458. Based on what we know about the 458's astounding performance, that is an idea that I just was not prepared to contemplate. i.e. they are suggesting that you could drive the 12C around the track at 7 or 8 tenths and comfortably outpace the 458 driver who is sweating it out at 9 or 10 tenths. I mean, that just sounds bonkers. I guess head to head track lap times will verify if that is true or just early journo over-enthusiasm.

 

Well, if we all need Button's ability to play with the car, then the Macca missed their mark. I hope it's not the case. The vid with Jason looked very inspiring. If even an average driver can have that much fun, this is the best car in the world (save some odd Zonda or two).

Yes, it looks like the performance will be just insane, but again hopefully not Veyron/GTR style. Interestingly enough, McLaren is saying that their suspension set-up can deliver 25% more mechanical grip than the standard one: this suggests that the early, crazy rumors that MP4 can pull 1.8 g in corners might be true. Think about it: almost 2 g's in a street car! It boggles the mind.

 

I hadn't heard that rumor. That would be racecar levels of grip and definitely would require a lot of stamina to utilize lap after lap.

In any case, for the average driver, connected means public roads and do all of the sensations add up to make you feel a certain way. Some guys will feel most connected in a Porsche or Lotus because of the steering. Some will say Ferrari because of the NA sound. Some will say R8 because it feels like one solid piece. Still others will say Veyron because it feels lie a rocket is connected to your right foot. In fact, I'd wager that blindfolded, you could make most guys go from feeling disconnected to connected in almost any car just by changing the stock seats to sport/racing buckets.

 

And the seat example is just as much about feeling the road's bumps and vibration of the engine through your body, as it is about lateral support. If you have racing seats in any of your cars you'll know what I mean.

 

I think 1.8 to 2 gs will not happen; it's tire dependent. 1 g on current high performance tires is working hard.

 

Yes I agree it sounds ludicrous. But then again, so does "better ride than an E-Class."