458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

C'mon, Ferrari would never put an Infiniti suspension on their car!

 

Adding hydraulic system will require quite a bit of re-engineering of the whole car. Turbos make no sense for Ferrari. They would lose their main selling point: the sound. Critically, there is no easy way for them to take off the weight and still keep the luxury and stiffness.

As to downforce: if the rumored lap times at Top Gear track and Nordschleife come even roughly close to reality. They will not have to brag about downforce numbers, since it's gonna be obvious they are the only ones who know hot to make high-performance cars. If.

 

Just post another picture of the front end, that will end it, LOL, your so witty.

 

I believe that was already attempted, unsuccessfully. Perhaps a rear end shot?

 

Yes, this is wheel is a complete attrocity - whatever were they thinking?

>8^P
ER
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Please expecting a company that brags about this pure minimalist approach....you cant expect style and flair too... Forget the wheels the interior is a shocker in my opinion....

 

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sorry if this one is a repost,

nice sound of engine revving at beginning

http://blog.caranddriver.com/2012-mclaren-mp4-12c-first-drive-video/

 

I don't think this one has been posted, either. Awesome footage inside the McLaren multi-million dollar F1 simulator - I believe the first time they have made such footage public.

Demonstrates how they have utilized the F1 simulator in the 12C development program. I guess this is where some of the "clinical" characteristics originate, but it also does explain a lot about the mind-boggling performance. In any case, this type of stuff sure does get my heart beating... but I will freely concede that may not be the norm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2wmnFLDgMQQ

 

Supposedly, this wheel design was the result of Ron Dennis (or someone at the top) asking the engineers to make the lightest wheel possible. So this is the result of a complete optimization of weight and strength without consideration for style.

The other two wheel options were styled in a more normal fashion.

Honestly, none of the wheels are that exciting but the whole design of the car is pretty laid back. An over-styled wheel would stand out too much.

 

LOL, this is getting rather hilarious as I'm pretty sure that Peloton was being sarcastic, no?

IMO that wheel and brake setup looks stunning, especially considering those are the standard aluminum/steel rotors!

 

The "super lightweight" wheel in the picture looks fantastic IMO, also the "lightweight" wheel looks damn good.

You may have legitimate concerns with the body styling but if you think the wheels suck then I have to think you are just lacking good taste ... K that's a little harsh but you get the point

 

I wonder if they are gonna offer European delivery. I would love to take this car through Fuchsrohre and Adenau Forst ... and survive it.

 

I'll repeat 4 points:

1. If you believe all high performance manufacturers don't optimize their tests, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. PayPal will surely be acceptable.

2. The value of the car is in the eyes of the beholder. In my opinion-which I get to have, car guy or not--is that the 12c is a "butt ugly" design utilizing features that are long since their "sell by date". So, too, its doors are simply impractical (at least for me) for daily use and their bling factor is SO 1970s. I don't even like them on ENZO--but its a limited edition super car designed 10 years ago. IMO: Bad design point 2.

3. It can't be serviced in MOST of the 50 largest cities in the US. Many of us choose to own a vehicle that we can enjoy often and also have serviced, when necessary--which happens no matter the car--without the very real hassle of "sending" it off on a truck somewhere for however long to be serviced by someone we don't know and can't visit easily.

4. This forum is called Ferrari Chat, NOT McLaren Chat. If you have comments based on "Facts" that are relevant, great, but I'm as much a "car guy" as anyone and I have long exprience with many, many high performance cars from numerous manufacturers--and it so happens I like the 458 more than what I've seen/read about the McLaren, PERIOD. I happen to like my GTO more than both. REALLY. In fact, I'd take a GT2 RS over a 12c--no matter if it goes "faster" around the Ring.

Maybe its time you moved this discussion to a different forum. Most of us that own Ferraris actually enjoy them. And, most of us know high performance cars--

 

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results/First-drives/McLaren-MP4-12C-watch-CARs-video-review-here/

 

Well, let's start with your tone first: if you don't like me posting here, you are free not to read it. It's simple enough, just don't click on this thread and you will be spared the cognitive dissonance and you can freely live in your Ferrari bubble.

As to the merits:

1. All mfr's try to skew the comparisons, but nobody goes to the lengths Ferrari does. That is the essence of Chris's rant.

2. To each its own. I do not think McLAren looks great and the doors are a bit of BS, but it's no big issue for me. I think Italia is a bit too pretty. I like my scud better look-wise.

3. Given my experience with Ferrari and Maserati, where I had to have it sent by truck to the dealership a lot of times for one reason or another, it's not gonna be very different.

4. You will take all those cars over MP4 based on what "facts", if you don't mind me asking?

 

Look, the truth of this thread - if you rewind and actually read from page 1 - is that you have several people (and most of us actual Ferrari owners, not trolls or McLaren fanboys roaming the Internet) that legitimately like the 12C and have been trying to share factual, objective information about the car - most of the time. I say most of the time because things only seem to get ugly when detractors, such as yourself, swoop in and feel that they have to throw around highly subjective and overly harsh criticisms like "butt ugly" and so forth. Seriously, go back and read through the thread, you'll see that these people are doing the majority of the attacking, instigated solely by somebody posting a performance stat or something else trivial.

If you don't like the styling, that's great - make your opinion known and move on. Otherwise, you are simply starting to sound overly defensive and it begs the question, why? Last time I checked, nobody was forbidden to discuss other brands of cars on this site. So, as per the original poster's question - go ahead and share your thoughts. But don't keep coming back to spew subjective drivel every time somebody posts something positive about the McLaren.

And if you don't like people defending the car and calling you immature for needlessly attacking it, well then don't act that way. It's just a car. There are some people here, myself included, that just want to get on with sharing information about the cars (including the 458) as it turns up and becomes relevant to the discussion. Before you post, why not take a minute and realize that there are way more people just lurking and reading this thread than actually posting in it. They are just looking for well-informed, mature discussion, so how does your post make you sound?

I'm not innocent - I'll reply to a silly comment with a smart aleck response or go off about something I don't like about Ferrari (or any brand for that matter) if I feel the company is manipulating us. But mostly, I just want to have a grown-up discussion about these cars.

 

You apparently missed the main points:

I've a long history of being a "car guy"--and happen to get the right to have an opinion without being accused of being a "nut" because my opinion is different than yours. Especially on a forum called Ferrari Chat.

Not all decisions on buying are "clinical", esp as to supposed times or performance numbers--especially when NOT ONE 12c has even been delivered to a customer. To start, how a car looks, sounds and what presence it offers when being driven are important to many buyers; indeed, at least as important as a 10th here or there on some factory or magazine article.

Also, supposed authoritative discussions about how the 458 customer cars don't perform as well as in factory test results seem rather limp when compared to the fact McLaren hasn't even built a customer car.

Beyond the above, I suggest its suspect as to your perspective on "facts" as to what lengths Ferrari goes to vis a vis "other manufacturers"...it appears based on only one rant by Harris in a less than quality Net based article. To me, something less than "proof"--but assuming all do "optimize" tests, AND Ferrari does more than others, why would this be different than "stealing" $500 dollars over stealing $5000?

And finally, I happen to like high performance Porsche cars. I like the rear engine driving dynamics--and skill required to drive them. I like the historical ties, the engineering excellence over decades, and the fact that an iconic style and engine set up--by one of the world's most famous auto pioneers and his son--can still take on the engineering designs developed decades ahead.

In my opinion--McLaren 12c has neither the long and colorful history in style/engineering of a top level Porsche 911 variant, nor the actual style, sound and historical color of Ferrari.

Does it mean I believe the McLaren is crap? Of course not. But I'm simply not impressed with this new model for reasons far beyond whether its ever so slightly faster or corners a bit better than either the GT2 RS or the Italia.

We'll see how the model does once it starts being delivered. And, whether McLaren can truly build a global car company and support the very real costs of continued brand and road car sales, service and new model development.

 

Hasn't McLaren consistently been talking about doing 3 or 4 different road cars?

The 12c is showing us the basic platform from a performance standpoint. But I'll bet they turn their attention to making some beautiful cars with the next 2 or 3 models. Especially after hearing the primary complaint from the public so far ....is that the 12c is not sexy enough.

Anyone know the time-line for the next McLaren model?

 

12C compared to Smart diesel and Panamera Hybrid: http://bcove.me/835fvtmh

 

Indeed I was - used a subtle tongue face >8^P to close my post that time too.

I resemble that remark () but I'm also a Ferrari fanboy and a Porsche fanboy and admire lots of other cars too.

I'm primarily here to share information with those seeking it since I've been paying attention more closely and for a lot longer on this 12C project than most others. It's also fun to give a gentle ribbing to folks like bdelp - keeps the discussion light-hearted and friendly I hope. No need for anyone to get fussed over all this.

>8^)
ER

 

This is true - the 12C is poised as their mid-level model and eventually they will add a drop-top version. They also have plans to build a new hypercar as a successor to the McLaren F1 and then eventually an entry level model closer to the magic $100K mark (or perhaps less) to compete with the Porsche 911 variants. I have heard that the hypercar may be shown as early as this summer - perhaps at the Goodwood FOS. Expect the entry level model to be unveiled in 2-3 years time assuming they are successful with this venture.

There will also be a GT3 version of the 12C along shortly - I believe they'll unveil it officially between March and May. It is being developed jointly with CRS Racing in the UK and they expect to initially build 15, and eventually as many as 40 if demand warrants.

>8^)
ER