458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

Great info. But as a NSX owner I would say the car is out of production but not in its grave. The reality is the car is so damn reliable that it will probably never die. Btw - We have large following of passionate NSX owners on a certain NSX site.

sorry for going OT. Carry on with your pissing contest!

 

Q19. Which one element of the car has the closest link to the F1 program?

NP: One element? Carbon. It's the one thing that has allowed us to do so much with the car to make it what it is. It has allowed us to reduce frontal area, thus reducing drag and improving CO2 emissions down to 279g/km. At the same time, its properties have meant that we haven't had to reduce cabin space as well. It's allowed to produce a car that weighs in well below the competition, and because the carbon MonoCell's stiffness contributes significantly to overall chassis stiffness, it has meant that we could save weight elsewhere in the chassis on the aluminium frames. It has given us incredibly good results in crash testing, improving occupant safety without adding mass. And as the key part in the chassis, it has given us a flexible and adaptable platform for developing new cars in the future.

Q22. Was the performance, styling, user interface (i.e. indicators on the wheel etc) of the Ferrari 458 a surprise? Was the '12C benchmarked against a Ferrari, if so which one?

NP: We benchmarked our car against all the major competitors. Styling is such a subjective matter that I don't want to comment. I was really surprised by the number of controls on the steering wheel of the F458, but the most surprising thing for me was just how light the 12C is in comparison.

http://pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=23176

 

I pieced together a few of the press photos to make a wallpaper for myself. Here's a link to the full version if anyone else is interested in staring at it for a while on their own monitor:

MP4-12C Wallpaper - 1680x1050

PM me if you need a different resolution and can't take care of it yourself.

>8^)
ER
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Wow did not know that.Great accolade considering
it's coming from Gordon Murray.
If Honda had gone with a V-8 in the the NSX
Then Ferrari would have been in real trouble.

 

That not what my McLaren dealer told me yesterday....the factory doesn't appear to know exactly what they will/will not allow in terms of watching cars be built. I had asked to go watch mine being built and the response, while not "NO", was not particularly positive. I am considering giving up my first year allocation slot for a slot in 2012....give them time to work out all the kinks in the marketing and purchasing, etc. For this kind of money I want a brilliant buyers experience and don't particularly want them to be getting on the job training through me. I think BDELP's post is right on target.

 

That is AWESOME! Thank you!

 

Competition is always good. McLaren will give Ferrari something to think about before putting the final touches on the 458 Scud and future replacement models for sure. Weight is also something many manufacturers will work harder on. HP seems easy these days but the cars are getting heavier...

 

Yeah - I was a bit late to the game and placed a deposit on it 3 days ago. The dealership in Dallas was saying you will be a bit down on the list and might get a 2012. I was actually quite happy with that. I don't care how good McLaren's quality controls are, I really don't want to be the 3rd car ever made in their new factory.

 

(Ferrari) dealers don't make their money on car sales, but on options and more important maintenance service/ repair.
The biggest problem of McLaren is the absence of installed base... therefore no service revenue....
That's why a lot of McLaren dealers represent already other brands.

 

Yes. I am certain the dealer selection process included a thorough review of the financial health of the applicants. For example, the company awarded the franchise here in Toronto, Pfaff Automotive, is a very successful group that represents Porsche, Audi, VW, Toyota, among others. That said, they are required to build a McLaren-only dealership (i.e. not co-mingle the cars in an existing showroom).

On all accounts, however, they appear to have the resources to support and build the brand in the early years. I realize some U.S. dealerships may not have quite as strong a profile.

 

Does anyone else find it a bit funny and suspect, that when it comes to the MP4whatever.

The reviews are being done with Pre-Production factory tuner cars, which seems okay because McLaren is doing it. But any kind of Ferrari factory setup for Ferraris is breaking the rules and cheating.

Which by the way, the whole reason Sir Dennis is doing road cars these days, is because he got caught cheating in F1, and he agreed to leave as opposed to being thrown out publicly. People who live in glass houses, again who does that sound like, should not throw stones

In the reviews that I have read, the words clinical, no thump, teutonic, too precise and in general the fact that the MP4whatever is less engaging and not as much fun as the the 458, kind of gets washed over, but the 458 was hanged for what some claimed were the same sins. So it is okay to put every technical trick known to man in between the man and the car, as long as it is McClaren

Even in early reviews of the MP4whatever almost every reviewer admits the sound, the looks, and the feel are somewhat lacking when compared to the 458. Sutcliffe or was it Heathcliff said, "is the MP4whatever better than the 458, no, just different" or something close to that. Which is exactly what I and others who have seen the car in person have said since day one. A huge majority feel the car is a nice technical exercise but for them it just doesn't stir the soul. Yet others here seem to gloss over this repeated theme and claim the car is more beautiful, sounds better and has way better soul than the 458. Oh and the Ferrari brand and all the soul stirring that it produces is, "so way in the past". Are you seeing a trend here

And now to the lightness, that virtually everyone has made a big deal about. I have noticed that just like the 458, the weight for the MP4whatever is all over the board. And this on a pre-production car that is not federalized for the US market. Don't you think we should weight....bait...wait, for the post production models? Just maybe post production and federalization just might add a little weight.

Oh what am I thinking, its a MP4whatever, it doesn't need to be federalized, the post production models will be even less than the pre-production models or weight for it......I mean wait for it, it doesn't matter if the weight changes, it's a McLaren.

Come on guys. You can not have it both weighs

Oh man what am I thinking....Sir Dennis says you can, with that kind of integrity who am I too disagree

 

LOL, interesting post, but if you have really interpreted the ideas expressed in this thread as saying the 12C has way better soul than the 45whatever, then like many here I think you need to to back to page 1 and begin reading again.

Once again, claiming to like the 12C and pointing out where it's performance *seems* to be better than almost all other cars, including the 45whatever, should not be construed as someone universally saying the 45whatever is crap. Or whatever.

 

Look familiar?

"Like I said, McLaren will surely attempt to emulate Ferrari's success. Not denying it. My point is that everybody claiming that Ferrari has that certain "mystique" sound silly.

Finally, a voice of reason. Very well said. And for some of us here, even though some of us are existing Ferrari owners, McLaren and its product are making that connection. To trivialize it, by claiming that we are just "statistic whores", is not accurate nor faithful to what is really going on.

A word or two about passion. And yes, this will be highly subjective, but it seems that is the way we are headed.

To me, the Ferrari brand is starting to look a little used up. It's been used and abused recently like a two-dollar.. well you know. And I grew up idolizing everything about the brand, so yeah, it's a little sad.

People love to throw around words like "pedigree" and "mystique", but if you don't think that is Kool-Aid of the most sugary, syrupy kind, then I'm afraid your taste buds may be shot. C'mon guys, the mystique faded years ago - now we have theme parks, roller coasters and Ferrari-branded trinkets of every imaginable permutation. Damn, the trinkets! - I've accumulated so many through gifts and event choskis that I'm honestly queasy at the sight of them. And I will rarely wear any Ferrari paraphernalia (even a nice wristwatch) outside my house because it feels like I am trying to out-bling the teeny bopper chicks draped head to toe in "designer" Louis Vitton junk.

Don't get me wrong, thankfully the cars are still great. But, I'm serious, that's how the brand is starting to look to me. If you think all the new millionaires in Asia are buying "heritage" and "mystique", well, keep sipping the syrup. Truth is, most of them are buying automotive jewelry to boost their image and status, just like everybody else. Of course Ferrari knows this and they are selling out the logo to the fullest extent, with Monty leading the charge. The man astounds me the way he can come up with new ways to use the word "passion" in a sentence.

Now, you may say that McLaren will end up exactly the same if they are successful. So be it, but to me it would infinitely more rewarding to be a customer at the beginning of that journey, when dignity is still an implied value. Dare I say it, even Lamborghini strikes a connotation of purity that is long gone at Ferrari.

Passion. Ugh. "

There is more, some from you and some from a couple others, but no need to reproduce here, we have all read it before, from page 1, right

Most important, is the fact that the points from my post stand, even if they giggle a little as I have tried to make light, lite, of a few posts. Nowhere did I say that you or others were calling the 458 crap, although......... If you were to go back and re-read from page 1, you will really would understand my post.

My original post, was in the vain of a question, Double Standard? As in a question to be pondered and then I just put down some direct observations from reading this thread and links in this thread. The idea is to read each observation and ask the question again. Double standard?

Maybe it was to move the thread along, maybe not Got to go now, I am double parked.

 

I stand behind everything I have posted, no matter how you will try to re-post it in different contexts, to suit your argument or mood. Clever technique, though- kudos to you for your innovation as I've never seen anybody on a forum do that before (sarcastic).

Although your previous post contains several points of contention, it would be laborious to try and address them all. Perhaps somebody else will. For my part, I simply notice that the overall tone seems to be one of attacking McLaren, simply because others, Chris Harris included, have voiced their opinions where Ferrari has done them wrong. A double standard, you say. Fair enough, I'll buy the argument that McLaren probably has its own tricks it likes to play. But I think you also realize that fchat is one of the only places in the world that you even have an audience to entertain the notion that Ferrari is "hard done by", considering their history of subversive tactics.

Now, can we get back to the merits of the McLaren MP4-12C and Ferrari 458 Italia, or would you like to drag this out further?

 

What find funny is that after all the reviews and 50 pages here, no one mentions Lambo or Audi or Aston Martin. Everyone compares the 12c to Ferrari.

To me, these other cars have a lot more to lose. In the press they don't even seem relevant anymore.

 

Yes, we are giving McLaren the benefit of the doubt, although me and others typically qualify things by saying that IF the performance claims are proven true.

Having said that, Ferrari has been credibly accused of cheating by a well-respected, independent journalist. In other words, we do know that most likely Ferrari cheats, but we don't know that about McLAren. On top of that, McLaren put themselves out there on performance and weight in a very visible way. They will be quickly called on it in April once the cars are given to the press.

As to weight, simply technological considerations suggest that McLaren should have an advantage. On the other hand, we know Ferrari is lying/obfuscating about Italia's weight: it quotes (not very openly either, try and find curb weight on Ferrari web pages) 3024 dry weight. Yet, one of the lightest US specs as measured by R&T came in at 3490. Almost 500 lbs of fluids and fuel? No way. And McLaren's weight is not all over the place: they clearly stated 3161 (3086 with light options). Notice the contrast to Ferrari.

As to Denis, whatever you think of him, it was him personally who went to FIA to out himself. Plus the contrast in dealing with drivers speaks volumes too: compare Button/Hamilton vs. Alonso/Massa, especially in Germany.


As to feel, that is something very important, and yes I am hoping for something more interactive than Italia. It might not happen. We will see.

 

This video contains some previously seen footage, but also some footage that I have not seen before. Also, gives some insight into why the McLaren may feel clinical or tame, compared to the Ferrari. Seems everyday usability was given a lot of importance. I'm still highly doubtful of the term "every day usability", as clearing a speed bump should be a minimum requirement!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rj9iSz2n6M[/ame]

 

I agree. Sells the story, I guess. I also think that Porsche may feel the 12C's presence, although only slightly and not in any degree that will derail their path to world dominance!

 

That doesn't explain the absolute silence in the press.

 

RS2 might feel it, though. Same price and slower.

 

Nice video - I really like the look of the very dark color, my initial intention was to go with orange but now seeing this it looks very aggressive and sleek with black. Works better with the simple lines of the car I think.

 

I think once you go above $100k, you pick what you want, not what some journalist hack writes to a target audience of teenagers to 30 year olds.

 

Surely you don't pick any car (even ones below a $100k threshold) based on what journalists write for entertainment purposes?

Perhaps they're good as an updated list as to what cars are on the market, but you'd be nuts to buy based on journalists' reviews for any level of car - it's as good as buying blind. I think car forums are much more helpful as the vast number of people giving reviews don't have any vested interests in promoting or disparaging a car. And, of course, you should test it yourself.

It amazes me that there are people who are willing buy a $100k car (or put down a deposit for a build slot) with pure faith in the manufacturer that they'll make an enjoyable car.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

According to my friends at Pfaff, the most interest they've received is from current Porsche owners, outpacing all other brands about 4-1... Thoughts on why range from them already being a Porsche dealer and having an established clientele, to the McLaren being more subtle than the F and L cars... They say lots of their Porsche owners could afford to go across the street to Ferrari, but prefer the relative subtlety of the German car.