458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

It's not me coming to this forum to call people names.

 

Come on Krzysztof, that's a bit much. Let's try to keep this civil.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Agreed. We were just starting to get back on track. Just ignore it.

 

Sorry, I did get provoked. It was uncalled for. Apologies to all.

 

I am really interested in all of your opinions on this....could we please come back to discussing this thread. I for one respect everyone's opinion here. That's why I take the time to read and post.

 

No worries, Krzysztof.

So... back to the thread.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

I think that rate of depreciation is way too aggressive. Not sure how it will do compared to 458, but I just can't see 50% in a single year. Doesn't seem to make sense.

 

Plus, as somebody else posted, nobody can say. I would definitely be suspicious of any dealer that told me something like that and tried to represent it as fact. It's like a broker telling you the Dow is going up 25% this year, guaranteed. You'd have to question his motives.

 

By the way, has anybody specced their car yet? I am supposed to do it a week from Saturday.

What are you guys going for?

 

That dealer is out of his mind.The used car market is
based on availability When the first MP4's come to
market they will retain good value because there
will be very few available - unlike Lambo's and Ferrari's

 

Really, I'd be interested to know exactly where you read the "airbrake/ring thing", I'd like to take a look. Certainly, I'm no expert but did drive the Ring once, so it would be interesting to know where an airbrake could be able to cut 10 full secs off the loop.

And, what do consider very hard braking from big speeds? I like to do a little test with my cars when I get them--a short version of what the Porsche factory drivers do during all new model testing.

In the case of my GTO and F430, at +150 mph, I hammered the brakes with my hands slighty off the edge of the wheel. In both cases, they stopped dead straight, no wobble, no issue and no need to grab the wheel back to be sure..

Maybe your scud just needs a brake job?

 

I don't remember the source I will look for it. Going into Big Bend at Lime Rock both my scud and my f430 would wander quite a bit: the scud much less so than the base car, but it's noticeable. The scud would get to something north of 140 mph (not on speedo, GPS-measured).

As to where the airbrake come into play: definitely going through Fuchsrohre into Adenau Forst, also coming through Kesselnchen into the turn before the Karrousel. In both places you can get big speeds before having to brake hard.

 

Look forward to reading the article. 10 secs is a very big number on the Ring at these relative times--and as I remember, these 2 corners couldn't possibly cut that much time.

 

No, they are not. I don't know if the numbers are right either. These are just statements from McLaren. However, if the other numbers on high-speed stability and outright speed are right, the Macca can get up to very, very high speeds on those sections. I can see how the airbrake might count for a lot in those situations.

 

Have you seen wholesale values for F430's and Scud's lately? The 458 is not immune either. I think the McLaren's resale value will be strong in its first 24 months.

 

Guess I have to believe McLaren. I'm sure they've done the metrics when testing...where can I find McLaren quoted about this?

I'd guess most high performance manufacturers would love to clip 10 secs off their last model's times when their new one hits...especially at relative times +/- 7:20 for the very best previously tested high performance production cars and especially if they only needed to brake better in 2 corners on the whole loop.

Surely Ferrari would--and, I'm positive they'd also like to know how McLaren's new standard +/- $275k production car could basically equal a time of the 599xx, a $1.1 million specialty built sports/racer with more than 720 hp, internal and external aero systems designed to drive very powerful ground effects, 2 generation carbon ceramic brakes/cooling, etc, etc. Indeed, if I remember, last summer the 1st so called "production" built sports/race car to break (barely) 7 mins.

 

I agree. I find it hard to believe. However, it's not about the two corners. The airbrake is gonna help all over, but the biggest benefits should be in those two locations. On 599xx, it might be about how ill-suited for high-performance front-engined layout is.

 

Possibly, except the fact is that the two fastest production based sports/racers of this class--prior to the 3rd (Pagani's--which also is approx 700 hp and was designed from all carbon, is extremely lightweight, again with specialty aero and brakes, and set up specfically for a record run at the Ring--were both front engined sports racers.

Let me know when you find the statement from McLaren noted above...look forward to reading it.

 

It might not be very relevant, but the top 3 "street" cars at the 'ring are all mid-engined, and the top 10 is 7 out of ten. Again, the majority are self-reported and not independent tests. Still, in top level racing mid-engined layouts dominate.
The comparison of 599XX and Zonda R is actually pretty instructive. Both highly optimized quasi-racers and yet 599xx could not get within 10 secs of Zonda.

 

Regarding the air brake-- it is not just about stability. It allows the car to work its rear tires harder, which reduces braking distances.

 

I'm thinking the Viper, 599xx, Pagani...Also, rumor is 599GTO (front) and GT2 RS (rear engine) have done unverified times close to/equal the Viper.

Again, looking forward to reading that statement from McLaren on the airbrake cutting 10 secs off the Ring time and some type of verification of the 12c capable of 7 mins.

 

Definitely, it's a big issue. Additionally, the car will be much more planted in high speed turns, so you will have much more confidence on turn-in. With my scud I have to wait for the car to settle.

 

I think the airbrake is the biggest gimmick on the 12C. Ok, it may have some effectiveness but seeing it in the movies, it moves too slow IMO.

The maximun effect of the wing is when you are at the highest speed. Drag is expotentially related to the air velocity. So, the maximum effect is when the car is fastest.

But, if you look at the movies, the wing is often just reaching it's peak well after the car already slowing very rapidily.

It probably does some good -- maybe at high speed corners. I just question how much it is really doing vs how much just seems "cool".

OK. All you Mac lovers can hammer me now...

 

Questions, questions, questions? ...

Any "tolling" McMutt factory engineers that want to weigh in here on the airbrake and 7 min Ring issues?

 

I cannot quite tell from the movies, but it would make no sense to deploy it at lower speeds only. The question is would they add it just for the bling factor alone? It must be good 50 lbs riding pretty high. If it does not have much function, then it would actively inhibit performance.