458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

With 599GTO, it's possible, although doubtful considering that it has trouble keeping up with Italia on a track (like at Top Gear test). RS2's "official" Porsche time is 7:18. So already better than the Viper.

 

I'm not saying it's useless. I guess what I'm saying is I question it's real effectiveness given the slow rate of deployment I see.

 

Funny, Harris says--after driving them both in wet Ring conditions (I believe Evo/August 2010)--GT2 RS feels marginally quicker, as I remember, basically due to turbo punch from corners, esp on short straights. Also, if memory serves me, Harris also says each requires completely different driving styles. He also suggests he'd take the RS over the GTO but really due to the "feel" he prefers, although he'd not quibble/argue at all with anyone that chose differently.

Top Gear, that notoriously accurate and well regarded TV show , with the great driver Clarky, seems to see it differently. And of course, their flat, short, very tight turn "test track" is quite similar to the topography of the Ring...

And, I believe there's a video of an informal Ring run with a GTO followed by an Italia. Surely not scientific so who knows?

 

Top Gear lap time's suffer at times from varying conditions, but overall are set by excellent drivers and tend to be pretty accurate, despite Clarkson's clowning. Dunsford has two tight turns but overall it's a power layout. 599 GTO has a distinct problem with putting its power down. That is due to front-engined layout. Do you seriously want to argue that front engine is better? It can be minimized as a disadvantage, but it is clearly inferior to mid-engined set-ups. That's why in the only independent comparison we know of, it could not beat Italia despite huge power advantage and 599xx can only admire Zonda R's rear diffuser from afar .

 

Actually, I think the 599xx posted its time first--and thus was the first to break 7 mins. Zonda came after.

To the point, the Zonda did a wonderful, stunning time--basically similar power, brakes, aero effect value and both were specially set up, but the Zonda was materially lighter--

Also--and could be a memory lapse--Zonda's driver is known as one of the great Ring drivers with thousands of loops, while xx used a "normal" factory driver with significant Ring experience.

As I said, Zonda run was very special.

Btw: Do you think an airbrake on the 599xx would have cut those 10 secs off?

 

Doubt it. On the other hand, do you seriously believe that mid-engine layouts are not an advantage?

 

Really...Top Gear. Independent and accurate...like what other TV show?

And, since real drivers...like Harris, Sutcliffe and Plato, along with nearly every other major (or minor) reviewer in the business suggested its the greatest performing production car to come out of Maranello (notwithstanding my time for the fair arguments from friends in the Enzo club ), as well as the factory itself saying that on its test track its the fastest production Ferrari built to date, I should believe Top Gear...

I'm honestly a big fan of the Italia--love its feel in fact. But it ain't a 599 GTO. But I guess since you've driven (or possibly ridden in) both of them at serious speed, you can offer an informed opinion to coraborate Clarkson.

 

I have driven Italia, but I would never buy a front-engine performance car (as opposed to cruisers). They feel heavy and reluctant on turn-in. But, if anyone likes it, it's not my business.

The journalists you quoted might think or believe that 599 GTO is the greatest thing ever. Yet, when an actual race-car driver took it to a notorious power track (Veyron there is quicker than a lot of cars that beat it on Nordschleife), it could not beat Italia. Again, it was actually not the same driver, the conditions might have been different, but so far there is no reason to think it can beat Italia. Maybe some future tests will show otherwise, till then the evidence does not support it.

Again, do you believe that mid-engine layout are not an advantage in high-performance? Not the feel, on-track performance?

 

Let's just say, the factory--who actually decided--I'm quite sure didn't offer to sell you one. Whether or not you'd have exercised the offer, had they given you the right to do so, is your affair.

By the way, Plato, I believe was recently rated as the 17th best driver in the world by one of the major Euro racing magazines. Sutcliffe, I've been told, is also a professional with vast experience. And, Harris is considered one of the best in the business, period.

But of course, your vast and knowledgable experience--having never even ridden in one--tells you that the car is "heavy" on turn in...

Except that the GTO has been universally praised by those experts that have driven it as the first production Ferrari to have absolutely "neutral" steering, without any over or understeer.

I can attest to that, as well as its immediate response--or as you derisively suggest "feeling not performance"--and would suggest Ferrari's drivers might be experienced enough with both the Italia and GTO to push the fastest one the fastest.

By the way: still looking for you to provide me a link to the McLaren statement on 10 secs at the Ring and someone that can support a 7 min time for the 12c. Any closer to finding it?

 

McLaren's Cheif Development Driver, Chris Goodwin, was quoted as saying that the 12C would be at least 10 seconds faster than the 458 Italia around the 'Ring, in part due to the air brake. I don't think that means the airbrake is providing all the benefit.

If someone can find a quote that clarifies this further I'd like to read it.

>8^)
ER

 

Now we're getting somewhere...at least 10 secs faster, in part due to the airbrake.

What is the Italia time at Ring? Mid 7's? Seems quite a way from 7 mins...

 

No, i an not close to finding it. I am not looking hard. I just repeat a rumor I read somewhere in the numerous articles that popped up on McLaren recently. If you want a link to the 7 min claim, here it is:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/anythinggoes/archive/2011/02/15/how-fast-is-the-new-mclaren-around-the-ring.aspx

If you had been reading the thread you would have noticed that many (me included) expressed doubts about the feasibility of the time.

Do you have any links to Plato, Suttcliff or Harris (by the way, none of the last two are or ever have been professional race-car drivers) posting lap-times on any race-track that are better than Italia's? I will wait for the links.

Again, do you think front-engine is better for on-track performance than mid-engine?

 

That might be it, but then it would not square with the 7 min rumors from Autocar. 10 sec or so would make much more sense.

 

Not looking very hard? Jeez, why not? Maybe you should ask your mommy, as you've said, possibly she knows. You might also ask her how a 599 GTO handles--or as you suggest, doesn't. She might know that answer, too.

Btw: note I said Sutcliffe is a professional with vast experience and Harris considered one of the best..and this was in reference to you saying these guys are "just journalists". I did not say they were all professional racing drivers--and, as with most, I believe they don't "race" a lot of cars head to head in their reviews.

But no matter, I see you didn't mention Plato--is he just another know-nothing journalist?

Take a quick look at youtube. Pull up 599 GTO and Plato, Harris and even Sutcliffe's video reviews. All are long well shot efforts and do both track and road work. I believe they might be very instructive--and likely as close as you'll ever get to riding in one.

You also might want to dial up the youtube on the 599xx Ring run. Excellent video.

As to on track performance...corvettes, porsche's, bmw's and ferrari's all win in high performance sports car and LeMans sanctioned racing. Depending on the year, usually Porsche or Ferrari dominate. One is rear, one is mid. But, I believe corvette, Aston and BMW are winners of races, too.

To your point--based on these facts, and since I neither race nor have been involved with high level racing teams, my opinion would be without basis.

 

Again, I am waiting for the links of GTO performing better on the track than Italia. You are very free to post them. You can start with Plato's.

So, you do believe that the layout does not matter? I suggest you take a race-car course from Skip or Jim Russel and ask the professionals what they think. Also, don't forget to ask them why all top level racing series (as opposed to street car based ones) use mid-engine layout.

As to GTO, I would not be able to drive one since you have to be invited to own one. I guess they have enough people to sell their most recent marketing exercises to, and I must be pretty down on their list. Tragic indeed.

 

Trojan, I hate to add to this flame war, but might it be that you are a touch defensive about the fact that the 458, which costs half as much as the GTO, might have at least as good if not better track performance as the GTO? I think its rather factual that setting aside exclusivity and aural preferences, these two cars are basically at least evenly matched in almost every independent track scenario.

This thread is spinning out of control, I don't see why we are spending so much time discussing the GTO, its neither here nor there.

 

And it also allows the engineers to get away with less downforce overall for acceleration and top speed phases, which is probably the bigger effect to which Goodwin is referring. Plus if the hydraulic suspension is that good - and provides superior mechanical grip in the corners - then, again, they need less downforce overall. Less downforce equals less drag, which means more speed everywhere around the entire Ring circuit, which would definitely be significant.

Personally, I think they probably aimed to beat the GT2 RS's time. I think the 12C's time around the Ring will be 7:14. Just my guess.

 

Any clip to substantiate?

No engineer, here, though would take the slicks on the 599XX over the McLaren air brake in an either/or.

 

That's actually the most reasonable expectation, even then it would be pretty wild. Fastestlaps.com has a pool on the time. Great rewards await.

 

No, it was somewhere in their marketing materials. It does not seem impossible, though since SportAuto got 7:24.

 

+1
Forget the GTO and let's get back on topic.

 

I am gonna ignore Trojan going forward, so we can discuss cars for a change.

 

With a carbon fiber "mono cell" I'd imagine carbon door sills would be standard....
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Damn - you guys type too fast. I am still on page 51 or something.

couple of points:

- Sills are a $2200 option.

- I seriously doubt it can do the ring in 7 mins. Then again - I don't really care. The fact that it is faster than the 2RS to 150 MPH is quite impressive IMHO.

 

Agree, its not and shouldn't be a GTO discussion.

However, though we can discuss what "basically even" really means--note Ferrari itself and the vast majority of reviewers would suggest differently--to your specific point, I dislike a putz that doesn't have fact or even experience to suggest he knows better than those that are truly expert at driving these cars--re: Plato, Harris and Sutcliffe for starters, much less many, many others.

I strongly dislike, as RCRAIG suggested, a simple high school bully, attempting to run rough shod over a forum in which he has no investment--and especially when he says he has no loyalty to the value Ferrari has earned, when he pointedly trashes the brand, its history, and personally lambasts those that own and enjoy the products with simple minded mis-statements, personal attack and specious arguments loaded with rumors of rumors he then states as fact.

And since I'm an owner, and one of the founders of the club for all GTO owners, "Scuderia GTO", its hard for me to allow such an "expert"--as noted, one that has never even ridden in any of these cars, and regardless of his perspective of those, unlike him, who were were honored by the factory to be invited to acquire one--to spout "facts" about how it handles, its driving dynamics and, esp its abilities relative to a car he's never even seen in person(and hasn't been produced or sold (Mac)) or one he doesn't own (Italia).

Call it a "writ for a rat". Its been served.

More than happy now to let the thread return to its point--regurgitating one Mac rumor after another and making factual and authoritive statements like they know it'll do...7 mins or 7:14 or whatever and its "airbrake" is worth 10 secs on 2 corners on a loop at the Ring.

End of the day: As Churchill reportedly said to Mrs. Astor: Madam, I may be drunk but you're ugly, and tomorrow I'll be sober and...you'll still be ugly.

The car is simply butt ugly.