458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

Perhaps the rate is moderated to avoid upsetting the balance of the car.

 

We all understand you enjoy your Ferrari bubble. You should really stay in and not venture out.

 

Maybe. I don't know if you ever saw the Jim Hall Chaparral 2F Can Am car race but it had a huge moving rear wing and it activated really fast!

 

With such savage acceleration, you'd imagine the top speed would be higher than it is. I guess gearing has something to do with this, though.

 

Ultimately, it isn't weight that determines top speed. It's total force vs drag.

In the case of acceleration it is weight (well, actually mass) vs work (in this case, torque), that makes the difference in acceleration numbers. Other factors such as limiting slip of the tires and reduced air resitance also have an effect.

But, acceleration and top speed are only semi related.

Also remember that air friction is expotential. The fast you go, the more energy you need to get there. It's easy to ignore air friction as a factor at 0 to 30 but impossible from 170 to 200.

 

[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP40iXxOsTM[/ame]

As requested, Plato's review. Enjoy.

 

Right- thats why to get even a few more MPH at the top speeds these cars do, you need to really alter the aero or increase the power by an order of magnitude. Its why the Veyron's top speed mode causes it to pull in its wings- less drag- but also less stability.... I'll take the stability.

 

With this car being placed in the segment it's in, I am looking forward to the next step McLaren takes. It seems like "top speed" as a goal, has been put on the back burner for many manufacturers, striving for better acceleration figures or lap records instead. More practical statistics. Seeing as the F1's record has been beaten quite a few times now, I'd be curious to see if McLaren take another stab at it with something ground breaking in the next couple years.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703584804576144413370548144.html?mod=WSJ_hps_editorsPicks_2

Interesting rumor from the UK. The track pack with the cameras/lightweight seats are not available at launch, but can be retrofitted later for just the cost of the new parts.

 

You have to agree that it is probably in Ferrari's best interest (and the owners who forked over 500k to buy one) to have their top of the line, limited edition, maximum performance model go around their track faster than their middle of the line car ..

I agree Plato's review was effusive, however it did not include any objective measures of lap times which is I think what was being argued about here.

 

Also as requested, Autocar-Sutcliffe's review. Enjoy, as well.

If you still need Harris', let me know.

Please be sure to send the video links of the 12c when it hits the streets. My mates and I are hoping they'll be just as interesting.

[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV-O4RWcSHM[/ame]

 

To each its own, but me and my mates are simply not into slow cruisers. Send me videos of "GTOmologato" ever beating Italia on the track, once they become available.

 

Plenty of "objective" options able to be verified for the 12c and Italia as well I guess. I've heard 1--Top Gear. A TV event known for its expert review and Clarky's ability to drive...

Let's just say, I could drop 10 or 15 just like Sutcliffe's and Plato's without breaking a sweat. All of which would need to be in cahoots (and none of which ever breaking secrecty) with both the factory and its drivers to inorder for this so-called conspiracy by Ferrari to work.

But, one never knows.

 

I fear this thread will be shut down soon and perhaps that is for the best, although quite sad.

I want to give you some honest feedback. I know you could probably care less, but I'll try to express the following without sarcasm.

All this throwing around of GTO ownership, GTO clubs, etc., etc., does come off as very defensive. The reason is that I assume you were invited to purchase the car because you have some excellent connections with the factory and/or your dealer, but I also assume that many of these privileges have been bestowed to you b/c you have spent a good deal of money on cars. If there are other magnificent things that you have done to earn such an honour, then by all means enlighten us. However, recently your posts come off as if you assume that many here could not put ourselves in the same position, should we choose to spend our time and money that way. And that, I'm afraid, does start to sound both ignorant and arrogant at the same time.

Now, you are probably going to craft a long response that will be a personal attack on me. Go ahead, if you like. I just thought I would tell you how you may be coming across to others reading this thread, since you seem intent on dragging the issue out and the thread is probably headed for closure.

 

Regarding the earlier post about speccing the car, probably as early as next week with my dealer. I'm really hung up on colour, though. Would love black but think it may be too much effort to keep clean - I'm pretty lazy
- "pissing match" wheels
- alcantara interior
- whatever exhaust is in the autocar vid!
- can't decide on CCBs yet, need test data re: track

That's the gist right now, but changing daily!

 

My scud is black, but it's no biggie. On the other hand, I have it detailed after every track day

I am going for Volcano Orange. Very demure.
Lightweight exhaust
Either technical or alcantara interior
If they can keep replacement rotors under 10k, I would go for CCB, otherwise steel for me. They go too fast on the track to justify the expense.
Probably carbon interior upgrade
Lightweight wheels and exhaust.
Iris
Standard diffusers

 

The process that is used to form the monocell is not intended to be "pretty".

Here on the bare chassis you can see why the sills can not be left bare. The optional carbon door sills are actually an overlay. I wonder if they would be lighter than the standard carpet sills though?

>8^)
ER
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At least its now clear as to about what your mates/you are expert. Enjoy that track work--

I'd suggest Ferrari Owners Days at Spa in mid June. There'll be a bunch of Italia's, GTO's, Scuds, F40's, 50's, along with 599xx's and probably FXX's.

Might be a good time to get a few laps in against some slow cruisers . I know all of us would welcome your mates/you!

 

Thanks very much. I appreciate feedback. I have no beef with you or anyone else enjoying and discussing any car.

I have no idea, and frankly don't care, especially as to my discussions on this forum, whether or not you could purchase or would be even interested in gaining access to a special edition Ferrari. That is your business alone.

The fact is I generally don't post on the Italia forum--and I really had no dog in the fight. But, after reading a few pages early this week, I tried to point out that there are legitimate reasons for many Ferrari owners (me included) to have cause for pause on the 12c.

Rumor is rift now about the 12c, and much of it seems to many of us without foundation. We all know that no customer car has been built and apparently none have been tested or driven by anyone but the development drivers at McLaren.

And even granting value to some of the rumored "specs", many who own an Italia (or another Ferrari) have the right to see something in a car besides a clinical perspective.

We have the right to value history, engineering, styling, global brand, etc, etc.

Let's be honest, this is a forum about Ferrari's, not McLaren.

And so when I suggested that I don't like the look or practicality of the 12c, was skeptical of the service and dealer network--none of which has ever operated, certainly on a global scale--did not believe a lot of the rumors because of my own experiences with high performance cars and noted the thread seemed to becoming all about "McLaren", I was called bascially an unknowing "fool".

I then simply suggested it seemed best to move this discussion to a McLaren forum where those who liked the car with passion could have free reign to fawn over the 12c, rumor or not, without worry about what values many Ferrari owners ascribe to their own cars.

But, this perspective, along with similar ones by several other long time forum members, were belittled yet again, and our personal experiences with our own cars--including one model currently considered by many experts as the one of the greatest performance sports cars in the world--were said to be not true and basically irrelevant.

You guys like the McLaren. Great--hope you are offered a chance to buy one and enjoy every minute of it.

You guys want to discuss Ferrari--and the value of its models, or even Ferrari and McLaren, I'd appreciate you do it without personally pounding anyone who sees things differently or suggests rumor is not quite the same as fact.

But if you want to beat up members on Ferrari Chat about Ferrari's, challenge or suggest none of us know about what we speak, especially when it comes to our own experience and cars, and make this thread--or any other--a soap box for McLaren chest beating, then I'd suggest again that you move to a McLaren based forum.

By the way, below is a link to the Ring run of which I spoke. Its not scientific, its not a "test", its not a race and its not meant to be anything but a hot lap by a GTO and Italia following. I'd note a couple things--

1. How very easily and smoothly the driver in the GTO is able to manage his car. No muss, no manhandling needed, and without having to bang the curbs, bust his brakes or catch/correct his line.

2. How smoothly and rapidly the car acclerates, especially on short straights, how he lays off at places where he could still push and at times, short shifts.

3. How its but a few clicks off 300 kph on the run in.

4. And how they claim to be able to manage 7:28 with a passenger. A very fine loop but not +/- 7:18 that the GT2 RS did with arguably one of the most experienced drivers at the helm (Walter).

Are there 8-10 secs out there? The factory says so but you can decide.

But no matter, I'd really suggest its a bit more than a Sunday cruiser.

[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiqV5XlY1ps[/ame]

 

Great post, Paul.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Yes, open your eyes and take off your $893 McLaren glasses!
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Thanks Paul. Your way with words is much more concise then mine, but I wholely agree that this has turned drastically away from a discussion about two great cars.
And trust me I thoroughly believe that the McLaren has the numbers of a great car. I personally have not become sold on the looks , but appreciate them the way I do most as a lifelong lover of fine sports and exotic cars.
What I couldn't take anymore were the attitude of a few when it came to a discussion with out a single customer car in the public's hands. I want McLaren to succeed as I want many other fine auto manufacturers to be successful.
Connection and passion are things that in my opinion Ferrari understands better than most , and their connection to the past is something that makes almost every car they make a special piece, not just for it's engineering brilliance, but just as much for the way it feels in your hands. For the way it sounds and yes also for the many little warts and blemishes we sometimes find.
In the end everyone makes their choice and I think that's what bothers some of the haters on here so much. They look at their choice and can't understand why we make ours.
The difference to me is that We Know it's the right choice.
The McLaren guys will wake up everyday and wonder if they made the right one.

 

The 458 is Ferrari essence. The McLaren is a derivative design based upon a Lotus on steroids. I would take the McLaren if it is priced the same as the Ferrari as I seem to be attracted to the underdogs.

 

Clearly, both the 458 from what we know and the 12 C from what we can ascertain are both great cars. Pricing seems to be about the same, for each with typical options but as many have pointed out and IMHO correctly so...the 12 C is still an unknown (to me) until I can see, hear and personally drive one. I'm interested in both cars and that's the reason I continue to read this thread. Perhaps when the first wave of cars (12C) are delivered we could get some first hand perspective and personal feedback from the owners. I would value that feedback very highly from a 458 owner who could compare his/her feelings about the two cars.

 

@KYZRS,your spec is very similar to mine,if you are looking for cost/versus performance the super lightweight wheels and carbon backed none electric seats are the biggest weight saving.
the diffuser and splitter save about 2 to 3 kilos,and the sports exhaust did save 4 kilos,but im told that through homologation they have got the std exhaust only 1 kilo heavier ,so its mainly for the sound,however in the uk there are alot of db restrictions on track days,so ive stayed standard.
as you know the steel rotors are lighter than the carbon,but are better than anyone elses due to the airbrake, as the load is more evenly spread ,also the heat dispersion too.
plus in the states they are a $13000 option.