458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

Well, we're getting off track here a bit but as you brought it up...

Again, it depends on your definition of poser. I think that's too simplistic the way it's tossed about. And, I hope you're not referring to people here because that would truly be offensive.

Here's my thinking:

You can be a fan, you can be an enthusiast, and, you can be a poser in my book.

A fan can be an owner or non owner who loves being associated with the brand.

An enthusiast can be an owner who just adores his car and others of the brand.

A poser could care less about the car or the brand and only owns it to show his stature.

Of all these, I think the third is the least likely to exist.


Some would say that if you don't track it, you're a poser. That's completely unfair. 99% of all Ferrari's never get tracked. To say that 99% of owners are posers is a complete injustice.

Personally, I don't hold my nose at non-owners who want to be associated with the brand. They buy all those trinkets that many owners hold in such disdain.

Just because you can't afford one doesn't mean you're any less a person.

 

Excellent post Bob.

 

Well, I think you can promote the best attributes of the Mac without bashing Ferrari owners or cars in this forum.

After all, if you're invited to dinner at someone's house, it's a bit rude to complain about the meal while your at the table.

That I believe is what is grinding most people and turning them off.

But then, that's just my opinion....

 

I would say: if you don't track it, you are truly missing the greatness of those cars (and ultimately their true purpose), and I am not talking of 10/10 driving. Although, ultimately tracking is not a measure of anything. You can great great driving joy by pushing your car on the back roads. Not the best or safest environment, but fun nonetheless. On the other hand, I don't understand people who don't try to really drive their cars. Why they buy them is beyond my comprehension.

As to your categories, I think you are mistaken as to what the likeliest motivation is. It seems to me many people buy them for the status, and clearly think that being able to afford one makes them more of a person.

 

Then I truly feel sorry for you.

In my 30 odd years of owning and driving these cars and owing a repair shop for them over 10 years, I've found the exact opposite.

 

Well, I am not interested in talking to fan-boys, who have nothing to contribute, except their fragile egos. Especially, when it starts with name-calling. If that rubs people the wrong way, we will have to live with it. This is a public forum, I am not anybody's guest here.

I am here to to compare the two cars: if there are things I don't like about Ferraris or other cars, I will (and have loudly) complain.

 

Why do you feel sorry for me? It is what it is.

 

Look, this guy is here only to instigate arguments and be rude to others. I don't know who the mods are on this forum, but it's about time this guy was banned and the thread shut down. What purpose does it serve other then to promote ill feelings. Maybe he should stick to the politics and religion where insults and bullying are the rule of the day. He isn't subscribed and doesn't even understand why he should be. There is no reason McLaren shouldn't be sent to it's own section. Frankly the guy is ruining what is best about his whole community. The camaraderie . I am tired of being told to move along. I have every right as a subscriber to want to see and read about these cars, but his sour comments on every single post by someone else ruins the whole thing.
Rob, maybe it's time you checked in and stopped this nonsense. I have seen people heaved from these pages for much less than this.

 

Because your experience with owners seems primarily that of self-centered, egotistical rich guys with gold chains and more money than brains only interested in being seen in public with it.

Luckily, I've met very few of those. I've met a lot of owners who love their cars, love driving their cars, love rooting for the F1 team, love what Ferrari means in the history of the automobile, love meeting others who own them or are fans of them, and feel literally SICK to their stomachs when the car is broken -- not because of what it did to their pocketbook but because like a sick household pet, they want it "all better".

Maybe you need to get out more.

 

Meaning my opinions bother you, but others calling me names don't? Camaraderie you say. You are tired of being told to move along, that's why you tell me to move along. Hilarious.

 

It might be my location, then.

 

No, I'm sorry but I disagree. There is something to learned here, even if you disagree with what's being said.

 

I own a 458 (and I am a subscriber) and find this thread appropriate for this forum, as I am determining whether to add a 12C. Unfortunately things have gotten sidetracked by various attacks and counterattacks.

I do not like the implicit message that is underlying various posts here that McLaren discussion is not welcome because this is a Ferrari forum, and that it should be taken to a dedicated forum. This is one thread among thousands and the discussion has been contained here. I agree that if you are not interested, do not read this thread.

 

You are so rude!

I see you've still not subscribed! For such an active poster I would have thought you would have felt compelled to cough up to support the forum.

Here is my opinion for what it's worth - it is my opinion so don't just dismiss it!

I ordered an MP4 12c back in 2009. I was in the first 100 orders. I specified my car in June (no pricing at that point) and did a McLaren factory visit in September. The factory is superb (this is not the new MP4 12c line) and totally awe inspiring. Saw the pre production/test vehicles being built, talked to the engineers, had a car started and then spent an hour with a car, in and out, looking at everything and understanding the ethos.

The car is superb, will be extremely fast (yes quicker than a 458) and will I'm sure be constructed to an equally high standard as the 458. But, the car is no Ferrari, the passion is different, the execution is different. Sat in the car I was reminded of an R8 - I'm not trying to say it will be anything like an R8 to drive but I was reminded. One of the key points from the tests I've seen is 'clinical' and I think even from only spending an hour with it this would also be my thought.

Anyone lucky enough to be able to afford one will be buying a great car from an awe inspiring company with a great history. They are however not going to be buying a car similar to a Ferrari, no bad thing, but not similar to a Ferrari. Great performance, and a magical car but achieving it with a different ethos.

I'm not (unfortunately) wealthy enough to be able to have a Ferrari and McLaren, if I could I would. I had to choose and that mean't cancelling the 12c. Not because it's going to be a bad car, it's going to be a great car, but to me (and this is my opinion) it just didn't grab the soul like a Ferrari does, and again before you all disagree just took the 16M out for a drive to make sure I knew what I was talking about - no way I could have swopped the 16M for the 12c.

To everyone who is going to get a 12c, you will get a truly great car, enjoy. It just isn't a Ferrari, to some that's good, to others it's bad.

 

I would very much agree with the above.

I personally am very curious about the 12C. I want to know about it and why people like it versus other cars. I'm curious how it stacks up not only in numbers but in how Mac will deal with it's problems and customers.

Just because I wouldn't buy one doesn't mean I'm anti-Mac. I think some Mac lovers can't understand that. Some of the passion for or against this car has worked both ways to drive the negative.

The 12C is a really interesting car. Shutting down this thread just because some can't control their emotion is not a good thing IMO.

 

Not to be a martyr here, but I have been told several times to take a hike, called names , etc and when I respond I am being rude? You jest, sir.

As to the merits, i am not yet totally sure what you mean by clinical: you say the passion is different, execution is different. I know you are giving us the atmospherics of the place and the (uncommon) efficiency bothers you. What about the car itself? Is it the sound? Is it something else?

 

Like you said - "I don't know that many that put more(miles) per year". I.E. - you miles per year average is not typical! Isn't that what I was saying?

I chose to ignore commenting on your second statement.

 

Well, you ARE in the house of Ferrari. I'm sure if some Ferrari owners were on a Mac site making the same comments they do here, they'd get a pretty similar treatment -- if not worse.

 

That's fine. I am a big boy. Jut don't complain when I respond. Especially without name calling.

 

I don't want you to take a hike, you are most welcome to contribute. Pay up to help the forum, don't just trash everyone elses opinion and we'll all get on. Different opinions, viewpoints and experience is what the forum is about.

The efficiency at McLaren on the contrary doesn't bother me, I think if truth be told there is no other way to build a car from scratch like the 12c. Ron Dennis has built McLaren on a totally focussed clinical approach, it is for that reason the 12c WILL succeed and WILL be a great car. As to exactly what it is I didn't like, nothing, I liked everything (not quite sold on the looks) but as to whether I wanted it more than my Ferrari (back to the boyhood dream) well no I didn't. Nothing wrong with the 12c, it is a great car but I decided I didn't want to loose the Ferrari - no more no less.

 

Well, I have never called you a name. I think that's pretty clear. If anything, I've defended Mac people while posting counter points to their claims. Nothing wrong with that.

However, just because I think it's not the greatest thing since sliced baloney doesn't mean I'm an idiot either. Sometimes, I think the Mac people get a little too defensive.

Let's face it.. the car isn't going to win any beauty contests. Even McLaren and the British press admit that. Just because you don't like the look of the car doesn't mean that they are stupid for not understanding it's strengths.

After all, beauty is the eye of the beholder.

 

You know I would, but the camaraderie is a bit off-putting .

I understand what you are saying, though. The thing might be too perfect. To me, it's gonna be about how alive it feels when pushed (and performance obviously). To me, Italia is just a bit too artificial, and I cannot get excited about the car, and believe me, I have really tried.

 

I never said you did and I never thought you were an idiot. You made lots of important points and i enjoy the exchanges.

Somehow, though, people think that I am a Macca fan boy, which is obviously false if you read my posts. I have several doubts about the car, but I am hopeful. I am looking for discussions to help with my choice not to confirm the choices I have already made.

 

Well I for one am going to be very interested in your opinion when you get your Mac, mainly because looking at technology it could be an even more articificial experience than the 458, notice the use of the word "could".

Opinions are always welcome and I think one of the great things about this forum is debate is healthy and seldon have there been any personal attacks.

At the end of the day these are both great cars, both will appeal to people but not always the same type of people. As for the Ferrari guys buying for status, well I have yet to meet one of those, all the Ferrari owners I know are genuinely passionate about the brand, in fact I know one who is getting a Mac to complement his 458 .

 

I guess my point is this.

It's possible to be PRO Mac and PRO Ferrari at the same time. People don't need to take this as an "either or" situation.

They are to some degree apples and oranges. I know most don't look at it that way because they seem so closely related and Dennis relishes the comparison.

But, the reason you choose one or the other is a completely different mind set. Neither makes any sense and both make perfect sense depending where on the fence you sit.