328 shift shaft seals: A fight to the end.

It seems the littlest things keep hanging me up. I've spent all day trying to get the dip stick tube out. Yanked on it with a hook...all day. Nothing. So then I tried to take off the union. Froze. All day with this crap.

So far, from what I've seen of how this same job was done 6 years ago, I'm not going to be leading the fan club for Rosario.
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And I said this was going to be easy didn't I. Not sure why yours doesn't want to come out. Mine slid right out using a coat hanger. I'm sending good thoughts your way.

 

Just out of curiosity, why are you removing the oil pan to install shift shaft seals?

 

Stick a hose in there and pull it out with friction/pressure...it should slide out. You can also unscrew the fitting; I had to use a large adustable wrench; I didn't figure out the hose thing until after I disassembled the unit...the online drawings were not detailed enough for me to decipher prior; so, I took it all apart. I do have a RobzWorkz sticky thread on this operation.

Brian, It would be nice to see some pics on shift shaft seal replacement w/o removing the oil pan. When I did mine, I did recall that you said it could be done. However, I wanted a better view to understand the situation, so I removed the oil pan anyway. I noticed that, if one was installing the OEM replacement (cup) seals, one could likely do it without oil pan removal, as long as one's finger wasn't too thick. However, I installed Verrell's quad seals; these, being more rigid, were more difficult to install....certainly worthy of removing the oil pan for better access to the seal recess between the pans.

Rob H.


BTW, for all, you still need to drain the oil...DOH!

 

I'm sending good fortune wishes your way. It was the small things on my project that got me stuck too.

 

Thanks for the support guys.

Rob, your tutorial thread is printed in color and sitting on my workbench. The hose thing didn't even come close to working. A coat hanger with a small hook won't budge it either. The tube can be pushed down a little after I've been yanking on it. So there's obviously some kind of kink in it preventing it from being pulled out.

Brian, if I had your skills, maybe I'd try it without removing the oil pan. However, like Rob and Ettore and it seems everyone else, I'm planning on using Verrells quad seals....unless you tell me maybe I shouldn't (send me a pm if you don't want to air that here).

 

Removing the oil pan is a big PIA. I have never even considered removing it to do shift shaft seals. I really don't think it a matter of skill. The rear seal is very accessble through the transmission. Install front seal, stick the shaft in the hole, install rear seal using the shaft as a back up to help position seal, stick the shaft the rest of the way in and they are done.

Quit thinking in terms of taking the car all apart and think in terms of what you must remove.

 

Nice idea, using the shaft itself as a backup.

Future,
Go ahead and remove the big nut and inspect the tube. Mine came right out...no kinks, though. Repair as necessary.

Also, while we have your gearbox and oil pan off, please consider demonstrating possible methods that could be done w/o removing the oil pan. Try first with the OEM cup seals, then with the quad seals. Please take pics if successful, and advise as well per your experience. If you can show a technique where we can see it happening without you going into the oil side, then we will have a great visual for future endeavors (then you really would be Futureman). BTW, I may have a set of OEM seals availavle if you do not. I used them for practice. Also, if you deform the quad seals in your efforts to show us, I will chip in $10 to get you a new set.

Rob H.

 

I used a coat hanger and made a VERY sharp hook on the end. I found the coat hanger to ALMOST be too BIG and would get hung up on the inside of the block.

Spent all day like you did until I figured it out. Then it came right out-- too easy.


Brian's idea sounds much better and I am sure it would work as I can easily picture what he is talking about. I am very sure it would work. Just make everything real slippery.

One day I am going to have to pull the pan to but the baffle in there.

Gettin the oil pan off after being loose was a damn difficult job in itself. I just could not "find the trick to it." I am not looking forward to that job and may defer it a LOOOOONG time.

 

Valid point, Brian. There's also a part of me though that wants to get it off and see if I can do a better job of sealing it than the previous mechanic. The guy was in love with gasket sealant. It's everywhere. All over the water pump and thermostat housing. All over both pan gaskets, which both appeared to have small leaks. However, I couldn't tell if it was coming through the studs or the edges of the gasket. Anyway, I was hoping to clean up some sloppy work while doing the job.

 

The union is froze. That was the first thing I tried. I'm dead in the water right now....unless I opt for the pan in place method. But I'd really like to get that piss poorly installed oil pan gasket off. I have a set of "OEM" seals that I got in a service kit 3 years ago from....Lyle Tanner. I think those will most likely go into the landfill along with the "OEM" pan gaskets he sent that look to be sourced from who-the-hell-knows-ikstan.

 

I never even thought to try this job without taking the oil pan off. I can't begin to describe how great it is to have Brian contributing here. Like you Richard I wanted to clean things up and deal with a leaking oil pan. I wasn't sure if the leak was coming from the gasket or the studs. Hopefully new gaskets and sealing washers on the studs will keep things dry for a while.

 

Use lots of PB Blaster in the tube and the nut. Do for a couple of days and try again. Relax in the mean time. The last one to work on it probably used red loctite on the nut; may have also brute-forced the tube as well (perhaps with loctite on it). I also used a small-handled adjustable wrench so I could have more room for turning. Also, if you can budge the tube with something, try rotating it a little; this may re-orient any bent areas to better remove. That's one reason I thought of the tight hose idea...so you could rotate the tube and wiggle it during removal.

BTW, I used the T. Rutland's kit from ebay with Verrell's seals. I am pleased with the results. I haven't had any leaks or gear shifting issues. I do plan to adjust my shifter so as to be more centered in the shift gate (note I was about 1/16" off center). I will use the WS manual procedure then (no visualization inside the gearbox).

I appreciate Brian as well. Thanks!

 

+1 BIG TIME for being appreciative of Brian...and Dave Helms...and David Fienberg and many, MANY others (Rob for his outstanding picture tutorials). What would we do without FerrariChat....oh...yeah, and thanks Rob Lay.

Ettore, I've had sealing washers sitting in my workbench for a while now while I've procrastinated doing this job. Hopefully this all will resolve the tiny drop of oil that shows up on the garage about once a week. (Ahhh, the obsessive-compulsive Ferrari owner)

Rob, I've done most of those things you've suggested, and few that I haven't. I'll give those a try tonight.

Thanks guys.

 

Is it possible that once you get the pan down as far as it will go with the tube still in place, that you can then use a screwdriver or long punch to help push out the tube?

 

If some previous mechanic was in love with gasket sealer I think you do want to get that pan off and check the oil system to make sure it's not all plugged up with loose bits of RTV..

 

I have to agree here. I had bits in my gear oil pan.

 

On my 328 the tube had a dent about halfway which made it a bit difficult to remove. A clear sign of some previous attempt at removing the oil pan without removing the tube first! That could be your problem.

If you are in fact removing the oil pan don't forget the oil temperature sensor, too!

 

I don't recall having to remove that on my 308 GTSi.

Is my memory fading .....

 

Best stuff I've found for removal of stuborn threaded pieces is Kroil. It is much better than PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench or any of that stuff. Spray it on and let it sit for a day or two, hitting it with some fresh Kroil every now and then.

But it is also possible that a prior mechanic used some sort of thread sealer on it. You might want to try heating it carefully and then going at it. Also, if you have room you can either try Persuader Technique #1 -- impact socket (6 pt.) and heavy duty air driven impact wrench, or Persuader Technique #2 -- impact socket and extra long breaker bar, with a long piece of steel pipe over the handle to get extra leverage, if you have one. If #1 or #2 doesn't break it loose, it most likely ain't coming out short of drilling it out.

 

It is item 34 in this picture. I had to remove it on my 328 , but I believe it is the same on a 308 GTSi
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I'm pretty sure this is what I've got. I could "feel" a small kink on one side of the tube as I slid the coat hanger up and down the length. I tried spinning the tube around to see if a different location of the kink would allow it to come out. No joy.

So I said screw it and went inside and had a bottle of wine and watched a Gossip Girl marathon. KIDDING! (well...about the Gossip Girl part)

 

Here's a site with some ideas:

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/dipstick-tube-extraction-sbc-84931.html

You may find yourself having to replace the tube when this is all done.

Sorry for your inconvenience.

Since you still have a good hex shape on the tube retainer, using a 6-pt socket and a bar may work, take your time and use penetrant. I find that turning a bolt slightly in and out repeatedly with modest torque will loosen threads as well; changing torque direction can free thread contact; still use penetrant.

If you get frustrated, spray on some more penetrant, leave, and drink another bottle of wine, and go to bed . Whatever you do, be sure to spray on more penetrant.

 

My notes from a 328... looks like I removed that threaded fitting.
Shift Shaft Seal Notes:

1) Prior to starting the job, from the top remove the dipstick tube bolt from the timing belt cover, the torque rod? (see below) and the battery prior to jacking car-up.

2) Prior to removing dipstick and oil temp sending unit; use a spray cleaner in the area (prevents grime from entering hole after removal).

3) Engine probably does not have to be lifted-up. I disconnected the cat and slightly lifted engine, but not sure if this was needed. If you do want to lift engine be sure to disconnect torque rod from rear valve cover. On my car there was interference between the shifter rod (from shifter) and the shift shaft being removed from the engine. The fuel tank cross-over tube could be pushed out of the way to allow removal and refitting of the shaft. (it would be good to include the fuel tank sleeves with this procedure) The adjustment fitting does not have to be unloosened.

4) The seal is a poor excuse for a seal; it looked like the OD of my seal was the weakest link; if I had the engine out I would fit a regular lip seal with a spring squeezing the lip onto the shaft.

5) Dipstick fitting into the case was hard to access and the fitting is very tight. Tried Snap-on 6 Pt, 24mm socket and it would not clear the threaded nipple; 1” deep was unwieldy and could not get long ratchet on it. What worked well for me was a Craftsman 12 Pt 24mm, Std length socket with a extended length Craftsman Flex ratchet. This ended-up being a very positive arrangement and the fitting just spun-out.

6) People have said this is an approx 9 hour job—this is pretty accurate for a first time, but having the right tools for removing the dipstick fitting would probably knock-off 2 hours (and an unquantifiable gain in frustration relief).

7) It would be best to drain the oil out of both sumps at least a day before (a week would be preferable) —the longer the better otherwise oil will keep dripping down of the gears, pickup tube, Etc.

8) Prior to removal of dipstick tube—put a mark on it (for clocking alignment), near where it fits to the block, to facilitate installation. It is difficult to move the tube around trying to get it in the right place when you are trying to reinstall it.

 

I did my 328 shaft-seals two years ago and had minor problem to remove the lower dipstick-nut. It moved slow and heavy but it went out. Did it once before this event without using sealing compound. It went in smooth.
Think the reason for sticking can be heatcycles in the engine, trying to deform threads.
Please use no sealing compound. Use a copper ring to keep the oil in.

Question: What direction do these shaft-seals have on leaving the factory? Face eachother (open-sides towards eachother)? Or back-to-back ( gearbox shaft-seal open-side facing gears and sump shaft-seal open-side facing passenger compartiment)?

Put in mine with open-sides facing eachother and still not leaking. Maybe wrong maybe lucky.