Ghibli SS 115/49.1928 Restoration

Hello All...

Well it finally has occurred... Ghibli SS 1928 has come home!!! It has been
a long time but she arrived a few hours ago... Below are some pictures in
her REAL home!!!

Now for a question... Ivan Ruiz suggested I should start a thread as I begin
the process of putting her back together, including engine rebuild, parts
sourcing, posting questions, etc... This would be similar to what Ivan is doing
with the Vignale prototipo.. What do you all think? Is this something you would
be interested in? It might be of some help to others who ultimately attempt
this madness!!! I will be honest though.. As I still work full time and am still
working on restoring an historical home, I may not be as prolific as Ivan with
regards to posting... But I promise I will try...

And to show you all how dedicated I am, I will start this work by going on vacation..
(ie: cruise)...

Mike
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Mike,

It would be great to see your restoration in progress. This kind of thread really offers a tremendous amount to the forum, motivation for others to embark on their projects, very useful information and resources usually come to light in the chat, and it is just fun to watch. Ferrarichat is amazing for how knowledgeable the brain trust is out there. I am just finishing up my Ferrari Lusso restoration which has taken 3 years to accomplish and I hope to start a thread here like Ivan's as well to chronicle the Maserati Mexico restoration that I will start in a few months.

Good luck!


Chris

 

Do you have any before and during photos of the body restoration?

And yes this will be a very interesting thread.
Pete

 

Looks to be a very nice shade of blue. What color leather and carpets have you chosen?
Also congratulations on such a tidy garage. Your thread will be a welcome addition to Mchat.

Ciao,
FGM

 

Mike......Please do....

I'm expecting my body back shortly and I'm restoring EVERY bit an piece. You will help me tremendously by doing so.

Where are you located?

 

Wow... Good to hear there is interest!!! I will do my best to contribute
as things progress!!

Ghibliman: I am doing much the same thing as you... I will be selecting
a machine shop shortly to begin the engine work... I plan on
re-assembly myself... I am located in Tennessee, where are
you located?

Portenos: Always good to hear from you (I still own your old Khamsin)..
I have included a picture of the interior... I like the color it
currently is, but it was dyed at some point.. There will be
more discussion on this in the future as I am considering a
change!

PSK: there are some before pictures somewhere in this forum already, but attached
are some during disassembly (note original green color), and during
body work...

lussoman: A fellow Mexico owner!!!! Please keep us apprised on your progress,
as in I think a thread on your resto would go hand-in-hand with this
one! What year and what number is the Mexico? Mine is 074... Let
me know if I can help!

I will be gone for a week on vacation, but please keep the comments, tips, etc..
coming...

Mike
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Hi Mike

Yes, please do keep a running chronicle of your work. You have a great collection of cars and it would be fun to enjoy the experience vicariously.

Aloha
Larry

 

Hi Mike,

Please continue to post pictures and descriptions on the restoration. A lot the work on cars in this price category is done by professionals, and not all are willing to share the details in their work (fair enough). I find it very inspiring to see others results, and will share the restoration process of my Khamsin when time comes.

Kind regards

Marius Sorteberg, Norway

 

Great Mike....Looking forward to this thread evolving.

I'm in Southern California......

The car is stripped down to bare metal at the moment......wiring harness is out...she’s just a shell. I'm refurbishing ever bit and piece.....and the Motor as well.

Sooooo keep the info coming!!!

 

Mike,

Your car looks fantastic! I am glad you opted for the dark blue color as it looks very good on a Ghibli. This is going to be one of the nicest Ghibli around. Keep up the good work!

Ivan

 

Hello All..

Am back from my short vacation and now trying to get over a cold..

But it is time to press on with 1928....

Today, I talked with both a specialized crankshaft shop and a specialized
machine shop that I will most likely use for the engine work... The crankshaft
shop is Custom Crankshaft in Knoxville, TN while the machine shop is
Mondello Tech Center in Crossville, TN... I will be visting the shops the week
after next, when I get back from a business trip to FL... If I like what I see
and hear in person, work should commence within a week from then.. Anybody
with any experience with these places (long shot)? Any tips on crankshaft/block/head work?

Now for a question to the Ghibli experts.. Attached is a photo of a part I failed
to label when I removed it (there is more stuff I failed to label)... I am not sure
what it is... I suspect it may be part number 6 from table 4 in the Ghibli America
parts manual (a supplement to the original parts manual), but can't be sure..
Any ideas? I will have more such questions as time goes on!

Thanks
Mike
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Well, no one took a shot at identifying the part I pictured in my previous post!!

Perhaps nobody knows or it is a part not original to the car... I will have to do some
further inspection to determine...

Tomorrow, I will be visiting the crankshaft specialist (Custom Crankshaft) in Knoxville,
TN... I have included a picture of the original crankshaft along with the replacement
crankshaft.. The original has a crack in one of the rod journals and has already been
machined 30/1000, rendering it useless... First indications on the replacement crankshaft
indicate it has not been machined at all (good!!)... I am going to have the crankshaft
measured, inspected, polished, balanced, and whatever else it shoud have done...

What else do you recommend????

Mike
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What you stated you are having done is fine. Nice thread, I look forward to following this

 

Can somebody please post a photo of say a Chev v8 crank so I can see where Maserati went wrong with this "supposed" crank design, ie. apparently Maserati cannot design a v8 crank ...

Thanks
Pete

 

The crank would be fine if you incorporated a harmonic damper which of course Maserati never did. Therein lies the problem, most undamped V-8 crankshafts have a resonance point starting at around 6000 rpm. Most manufacturers incorporate a damper to control crankshaft resonance. Maserati took the trouble to so for the six cylinder engine but I have not yet heard a good reason why they chose not to do so the eight cylinder engines. All we know is that they recognized the problem and put the redline for the engine at 5500 rpm in order to keep people from moving into the resonance area. Also, since the camshafts tend to run out of steam at around 5200, there really wasn't any real reason to go much higher. You were still moving pretty fast at that rpm.


Elliot Siegel

 

Oh that sounds like an easy fix, that does not really indicate that they could not design crankshafts as others have said. Even the E-type Jaguar engine revs higher and safer if a harmonic damper is installed.

Pete

 

Hello All...

Thought I would report on the crankshaft that I dropped off at
Custom Crankshaft in Knoxville, TN today... After a long and nice
discussion with the main guy there (he took some of his valuable
time to explain things to me), here is what will be done:

1. Clean and Polish
2. Send the crankshaft to be X-Rayed (ensure no cracks)
3. Get exact measurements
4. Determine if grinding is necessary
5 Grind if necessary
6. Balance
7. Decision if Nitriding (hardening) should be done

I had the rod and main journal specifications (thanks to Stuart at MIE)
with me. Stuart confirmed what I had found in many pieces of documentation.
Main and Rod Journal specs are as follows:

Main Journal: 76.175mm + or - .005mm
Rod Jorunal: 53.000mm + or - .005mm

Roy at the shop asked me about the corners, where the journals transition into the balancing weights, which I think may be called the fillet area.. I didn't know the measurement (radius), but these are typically rounded to increase crank strength...
This measurement is important if grinding needs to be done...

Another piece of information I might need (although I think the shop will have
this information) is if the crank needs to be ground, say 10/1000's, what is that
measurement in millimeters (mm)... I think it would be good for me to know this
as well...

Regarding Nitriding.. According to the shop the process hardens only to a very
small depth of the surface area.. He gave me the figure, but I forgot... I knew
I should have written it down!!!

I will be talking to the shop on Thursday morning to see where they are at and
may have more to post then.. I will also be visiting the shop who most likely will
perform the block, piston, head, etc.. work on Thursday, so more to come...

I apologize in advance if I got something wrong... Please let us all know as this
info may be useful to others...

Mike

 

Just thinking here, but thought I would ask...

When I got the main and rod journal specifications, I noticed
these specs are the same for the 4.7L crank and the 4.9L crank..

Does anyone know if these cranks are interchangeable??

Mike

 

The cranks are not interchangeable because the stroke is what is increased to get from 4.7 to 4.9 liters displacement, and that means the distance from the offset part of the crank (where the rod bearings go) is longer from the centerline of the crank for the 4.9 cranks, thereby increasing the stroke of the piston. The size of the main and rod bearings can be the same while the stroke is increased.

 

Hi Mike

I looked at the part that you had a question about and I am not familiar enough with Ghiblis to offer much that is constructive. I looked through the parts manual and USA supplement. The TAV and illustration number that you provided doesn't look quite right, but there is so much on these cars that change that it is pretty tough to say with any certainty. I feel that, as assembly progresses, it may become clear what the mystery piece is.

It looks like the crankshaft is not a single plane design, so the balancing will need to be done with bob-weights bolted to the rod journals. The weights are a calculated amount that takes into account the weight of the rods, pistons, rings, wrist pins, and circlips (or teflon or aluminum buttons if you go that route). It seems pretty clear that the crank is internally balanced so it probably is not necessary to spin it with the flywheel and clutch, although I think that it is good practice to balance the flywheel and pressure plate as a unit and then spin the crank with the assembly in place. You will also want to have all of the pieces that are on and spin with the front of the crank in place. To reiterate, you will need to have all of the parts that will be used with the rods and pistons available so that they can be weighed and the amounts used the calculate the proper bob-weight value.

Nitriding provides a shallow hardening of the crank journal surface. Usually, if a crank is nitrided and needs to be ground undersize, the nitriding will have to be restored. I don't know if these cranks are nitrided from the factory. I think that the materials used in the crank and the shell bearings determine if the surface hardening is needed.

The journal fillet radius is usually just maintained if the journal is ground undersize. I guess increasing the radius may provide some marginal strength increase, but any increase cannot be allowed to intrude into the area that the bearing runs on. It seems that maintaining the original radius is a safe strategy. Any machine shop should have radius gauges.

 

Hello All...

Just a quick update on the machine shop visit yesterday... I visited
Mondello Tech Center in Crossville, TN and they will be my choice to do
all the block, pistons/rods, and head work... It was a most impressive
place... I would love to give an item by item list of what will be done
but I can't since they need to see all the items and take measurements
first...But here is what I do know:

1. All the parts will be cleaned (they have a sonic scrubber which
apparantly works quit well - if needed)...

2. Block will be line checked, and bored if necessary.. The cylinders
will have a light honing (dust honing?) performed.

3. Pistons will checked and ensured still usable... If not, they have the
possibility of getting new ones made, potentially less expensive than
what's available now... We'll see on this...They indicated, if I remember
correctly, hardening the rods might be worth it...

4. All part pertaining to balancing will be brought to them for a complete
balance... My question to you all - Is this what is known as blueprinting?

5. Heads will be disassembled, cleaned and rebuilt... If valves are needed,
they can potentially have new ones made, cheaper than what's available
now... We'll see as well on this one....Other new parts may be needed
as well...

6. Block and Head surfaces... If needed and still within spec, these surfaces
will be shaved...

As I mentioned the facility was quite impressive... They even have some kind of
apparatus they use to cryogenically freeze valve springs (?) to make them harder
or more durable, if I remember correctly... I won't be doing this but it is nice to
know this could be available.. If I want they can even flow test the heads as well
as have all the equipment to grind, drill, mill, and weld aluminum for the heads and
block...

From what I understand, the owner, Joe Mondello, is quite known for being an Oldsmobile
engine expert and is quite respected in the drag racing world... He moved here from
CA and mentioned he had worked on quite a few Maserati engines in CA.. He advertises
regularly in some of the hot-rodding magazines...

The one thing I have to think about is whether to get a torque flex plate for this engine.
Apparantly, this is something that bolts to the block and simulates the flexing the block
would undergo under normal operating conditions.. Brett, the machinist, said this is used
to better hone the cylinders to real world scenarios... I don't know if I have this correct,
so my apologies if I have something wrong...It adds a couple hundred $ to the cost... I'm determining whether I think this is necessary! Opinions are welcome?

All in all, I came away with a very good feeling!!! I hope this proves correct... I will
be delivering everything to them including what specifications I can in the next two
weeks, hopefully.... Based on their schedule they asked for a couple of months to
perform the work... This sounds pretty reasonable to me... I will keep you all informed...

Mike

 

Vaholtorf: Thank you for the answer on the crank question (4.7 and 4.9)... I see your
point why they are not interchangeable!!!

Sowest: Much of what you mentioned in balancing is exactly what I heard at the
machine shop yesterday... They want the flywheel, clutch, and other
moving parts for balancing....

Again, please keep the advice, tips, hints, comments coming... I know I am learning
a lot, and hope this may be helpful to others!!!

Mike

 

Hi Mike,

Can you please post or PM me what their estimate was to rebuild your motor.

Thanks,
Chris

 

Hi Chris...

Here is what I know regarding cost...

The crankshaft work is estimated to be under $250... If grinding
is necessary, the cost may increase!!!

The machine shop work for the block, pistons/rods, and heads should
come in under $2500... But this may change as we get into it and see
what all needs to be done, and what machining options and parts will
be needed...

I will try and keep you all posted on what this ends up costing!!!

The big savings have been the engine disassembly sofar... Since I plan
on doing final assembly myself, I am hoping for big savings here as well!

Hope this helps...

Mike

 

Nitriding of the crank is a big plus here. After your crank graduates from the magnaflex crack detection process, and is straightened, and then determined what under-size to be ground, the shop can then grind it for the Nitriding process. Usually the part will swell slightly when nitrided, so they can compensate for this. Afterwards polishing will make everything uniform, and back to spec size required, but one can only polish so much.
The radius IS the strength of the crank. Oil galleys should be chamfered (the exits holes rounded off) for better flow. If extreme use, or lub problems are present in these designs (I am not familiar with our V8s) then cross drilling the oil galleys is sometimes recommended. These cranks may already have this feature though?
Sounds like it would be nice if some one offered a harmonic balancer for these animals?
RF.