FIAT Dino/FIAT 2000/FIAT 124.....spyders

I thought I would put this here.

I am pretty familiar with the FIAT V6 Dinos, in both coupe and spyder form...

Lately I have been thinking about adding a FIAT spider to my fleet, and scanning the ads and local carlots for a restoration worthy example..so I have also been follwing the comments on Webers vs Injection and all that....

I found a pretty nice (some rust) 1974 124 Spyder only a few blocks from the house, looked rough but was "all there"....the shop said "NO WAY" was I ever going to pry that one away from it's owner as "he's loved it all those years".......interesting.

It didn't look very "loved"....LOL!

So, I drove a few more blocks down the street, to where all these low buck car lots line up, and there in the shade sits a faded red FIAT 2000 spyder (don't know what year, but it does say "Fuel Injected" on one trunk badge) and the rear trunk emblem is a sailboat???
This car is also "all there" but the interior is a little rougher...

They were asking $3K a year or so ago when I looked at it, and have turned down $2,700 apparently..they want me to make offer.......I was not thrilled to see 125,500 miles on it, but might want to convert to Webers anyway..

Discuss...

Any 'clean deals" out there anyone sees?

What is the $$$$ market?

Injection vs. Webers?

I really want to stick with early cars with chrome bumpers front and rear, which this 2000 does have. A very cute car to look at it, I can see a metal flake Ferrari red on it and my hair in the wind on the way to the beach!!!!

Thanks everyone..

 

I've worked on sooooooo many in my shop (124's).

The good: They are cheap and kinda fun.

The bad: Not very reliable and tend to fall apart.

Now, the best ones probably were the Pinnafarina versions at the very end. They are also the rarest and most difficult to find. They were also in some stranger colors...and the most expensive to buy.

The interiors tend to fall apart. Of course, they rust.

The engines are very bullet proof and maintanence is simple, (timing belt, water pump, oil change, etc). The valves typically run a 100K but the bottom end is very strong. They don't blow head gaskets as easily as Alfa's but it's not a good car to overheat. It's important to take care of the radiator, make sure the electric fans work properly, and the water pump isn't leaking. If it's properly set up and maintained, it will not overheat. If it does, suspect the thermosat, radiator, water pump or relays that control the fans.

The gearboxes are pretty good but synchros (duh... 2nd gear) can wear out. Clutch replacement is a piece of cake as are brake jobs. They are not clutch eaters. Expect about 60K miles or more depending on how you drive it.

The top is one of the best engineered in the world. You just undo two latches and toss it over your head. Only the Alfa spider has a better roof design.

The biggest weakness is the rear end -- but only for 2000 spiders. The 1800's don't have as much power and I always felt they never engineered the 2000 rear end properly. I saw a lot of them with broken teeth at about 60K miles. The worst thing you can do to a 124 is let it roll backwards and then pop the clutch. The backlash is murder on the rear end. I stopped finding used 124 pumpkins in the junk yards (I used to get them for $200) but they just can't be found now for so many swapping them. Rebuilding the rear end without swapping a used one was pretty close to the value of most of the cars I saw.

As to FI vs Webers: It's not much difference. For sure, the FI makes the car easier to start and run more reliably. It's a lot easier to start from cold or in poor weather. The FI is really simple 1980's Bosch so it's no big deal to repair. Most of the problems are with the airflow meter wearing out (you'll see a lot of them that have been opened up and re-siliconed back together after some fudging).

Here's the biggest issue with 124's: Poor maintenance and repair over it's lifetime. A lot of these were sold cheap as cheap sportscars. People who bought them were either cheap or the repairmen working on it didn't care. So, I found a lot of problems with improper electrical work or "patched up problems" to get the car down the road to the next buyer. It's unfortunate but a lot of Fiat's bad reputation is due to this.

Parts are not a problem. I used to get them from different sources including Fiat Plus. You can also find some in junkyards as they were fairly common. Spark plugs, timing belts, distributor caps, and filters you can get at your local Napa.

The paint is truly horrible but I think most foreign paint of the 80's was. It will oxidize while you look at it. If it hasn't been repainted and looks good, it's because the owners waxed it all the time.

Almost all of them I saw had the catalytic convertor removed or drilled through. If you have emissions testing in your area, get it it on a gas analyzer first and see if it will pass. The convertor isn't expensive but it's incredibly common to have emisions problems from people screwing with it.

So, it's rust, proper repair and maintenance, general condition, and interior condition that you should be looking for. They are really a product of the 70's so it's a lot easier to work on than today's more modern cars.

Personally... I like the 1800's as they are a little simpler. But, a lot of people like the more cushy and torquey-er 2000's.

 

That is probably one of the later fiat spiders- they were called Pinninfarina from 1982-1985
See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_124_Sport_Spider

What a useful post! While I don't plan on ever getting one, I love reading about some of these old cars. My brother had a '78 1800 as his first car and it was pretty neat! Motor ran like a top and it was about 10 years old at that point with 70Kish miles I think. The tranny did start popping out of gear around the time he sold it however. Wood steering wheel was cool, and same shifter knob of period ferrari's like the 308 I beleive (the spiders may have lost their wooden steering wheel by the 80's as the safety watchdogs were enforcing their will with silly things like 85MPH speedometers and such around that time )

 

Thanks for the quick replies!!!!

Yes, the red 2000 Spyder DOES proudly wear a Pininfarina badge as it's hood ornament, (instead of the round FIAT wreath) and it's just a "good looking car", to my eye....

If it runs I might have to get it a few blocks down the road, for a look over by the Ferrari Shop, and ponder on that $3K number........

There's a 124 Spyder under a cover where my yellow 308GTB is nearing completion.

Keep 'em coming Dino Guys!!

There was a forest green 2000 For Sale by my ex's house a long time ago, excellent shape but I really did not know what it "was"....

 

There are also some very rare Turbo versions out there. The turbo's were installed in the US by Fiat USA.

 

Now THAT might get me down to Galveston Island on the fly!!!!

On injection or Webers???

 

All 2000's were Injected. I only saw one and didn't drive it. Like all turbo cars, it has advantanges and disadvantages. It was a bit pricey when it was introduced.

The good news about Fiat 124 motors is that the bottom end/pistons/ rings are pretty strong. So, they can handle the extra power.

I think you can still get an aftermarket turbo kit for them but it's not cheap. And, I think you're better throwing it into a refreshed engine instead of one with 80K+ miles...

I think I owned 2 or 3 124 spiders. I can't remember because I bought some of them from customers and resold them to other customers. Some people just wanted "out" of them and I could get them for a bargain. I like Alfa spiders more, but the 124 isn't a bad car to drive.

 

My first car was a '72 124 Spider. Last year of the 1600cc high revver and no bumps on the hood. Loved it so much I rebuilt the head 3 times

Buy my '61 OSCA-Fiat 1500S and put her back together...
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The 1500 is so beautiful! It looks like a mini-Maserati.

 

The installation was done not by Fiat but by Legend Industries (who also did the turbos for the Renault V6 in the Delorean). As I recall, there were lots of problems with those cars, and Legend Ind. no longer exists.

 

That would be a fun ride, but I would opt for the tried and true Alfa. If maintained they hold up much better.

 

different ride, I really like the 124 sport,the remind me of the 250gt
but that Alfa engine is hard to beat!

 

That's true that Legend was the subcontractor. But it was sold as a new car through Fiat USA. It was not technically "aftermarket".

 

My .02 worth, and having known quite well these cars, and really wanting one again.
The one with the sailboat you saw, was called " Azzurra" (Blue) due to the wishes of Gianni Agnelli to glorify the sailboat of the same name that competed as the Italian entry in the World Cup.
The European version was equipped with the "Volumex" blower.

The one I realy like, is the Fiat Abarth version, a spectacular rally car and looked the part real well...
First one is a Stradale model, off the showroom floor.
Second one, is a Rallye version, with late official cars equipped with 16V engines, mechanical F.I., even more wicked looking and an absolute joy to drive.

This block, in latter versions, being the base for the Lancia 037, and Delta S4 , with turbo and Volumex supercharger working in unison. Talk about a bulletproof motor! These were the cars that ended the 500HP of the group "B" rallye cars, with the death of Henri Toivonen, a great rallyman, if not amongst the best ever. He was the Villeneuve of rallye drivers.

A Fiat engine on Webers, sounds great, even better than a BMW 2002 with same.
Alfas, we can talk about it.
The F.I. Fiats were dogs, only trying to pass emissions. Fat cars.
Any 1600 Fiat Spyder on one Weber was faster than a late 2 liter with injection.
If you really want fun, get an early 1600, put in a 2000, twin Webers (44IDA) , with some nice 300 degree cams, headers and pistons of the forged persuasion.
Half the price of an Alfa to build. Of course, the real Abarth stuff, is big bucks and for the large part, difficult to find, if really good examples and with history.


Regards, Alberto
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The best Spiders are, arguably, the 83-85's since Pininfarina took over the final assembly and made some minor improvements, although the Fiat and Pinin' units are basically identical. Fiat pulled out of the US in 1982 and just turned over the mechanicals to Pinin' and they used the paltry Fiat distributor network in the US. There were approximately 190,000 Spiders produced with the peak year being 79, 45% of those came here, with CA getting the most. Converted to FI in 80. Pininfarina did a little better final assembly, smaller production runs, more quality control (they didn't show up on these shores 'pre-rusted'), and introduced some ergonomic improvements such as seating position and a new console. 83's - 85's are also the rarest. This model had a long life, 1966-1985, much similar to the Alfa Spider. They were ran along side by side assembly lines in Pinin's Torino factory. Discontinued in 1985 just when they gave it rack and pinion steering. The ill-fated Cadillac Allante replaced the Spider assembly lines in the Torino factory, and thus the end. I have owned many spiders and currently own an 83 124 in all orginal condition except for a complete engine rebuild by a 40 year Fiat mechanic. It's a driver, and does great. They are quirkly, the FI's are definitely more desirable. By far the most desirable of the Spiders is the 1985-only Volumex. It was supercharged, believe it or not, and was a Europe only release, most of them ended up in Germany and are often for sale there. Fiat released a turbo version in 1981 but was horrible mechanically and most ended up being de-turboed as it was not fitted at the factory, though it was factory authorized. There are stories of owners literally frying eggs on the turbo unit after a spirited drive. If you find a Spider with A/C intact it's rare as the A/C units were fitted here in the US and most lasted around a year. Mine was gone long ago, but this car lived in a collection with Maser Bi-turbos for 17 years and when I got it it had 67K on it in excellent condition and I've driven it to around 110K now. Most everything mechanical has been replaced. Interior, paint, top, wheels, all else is bone-stock.

They are easy to work on, good parts sometimes hard to find if you want to keep it right. Mine is kept in good driving condition. It is distinctively Italian, not as much like an F-car as an X1/9. The Fiat Spider is a little more akin to a Lancia. I've been through just about every issue imaginable with these cars and would be happy to offer any advice, just pm or email.

I've had this car for over ten years and drive it all the time. It's also for sale in the near future.
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Correct

 

I didn't catch the discussion of the turbo. It was installed by Legend Industries in New Jersey, but the turbo itself was a Borg-Warner unit that bumped horsepower from 85 to 115 with a boost of 6 psi at 3000 rpm. They spent 18 months developing a turbo that wouldn't blow up the engine then slapped it on a Fiat endorsed it.. There were around 700 built. They were all Azzuro blue and had a special turbo sticker, you can't miss them. I've seen more de-turboed turbos than one's with the turbo, that would be around 10 that I've seen.

I'd also politely disagree about the 1600 and a carb vs. FI. Having had both, the FI was a 2 liter, had much more torgue, and much better engine. That does not include the ultra rare Abarth Spider, which was an absolute monster but the originals are all gone, only one or two that actually exist. One privately owned in Sweden and the other in the Abarth Museum. The Stradales were not homologated to the required number as the 124 and X1/9 rally project cars that remained were mostly destroyed at the factory, with only a few slipping into private hands. These projects were replaced by the Fiat 131 in order to sell cars and the serious rally car became the venerable Stratos, which....goes full circle back to Ferrari.

 

Weren't there two 1600s? The second (1608cc?) was rather torquier as I remember.
In any case its good to see that these cars are still appreciated.

 

Yes the desireable one is the 1608, short stroke, larger bore. The alter 1592 is the opposite

 

Actually all 79 2000's were carbed. In 1980 CA cars were injected. By 1981, all were injected. the 79 has avery small emissions carb and is considered a dog, it is cheaper as a result and is the one to buy for a weber conversion.

There were three generations of the car: 68-74 are the early carbed chrome bumpered cars. a 71 or 72 with the short stroke 1608 motor is the one to have-beautiful car and a great motor, great sounds, revs and light on its feet. The cars started with a 1438 twin cam from 68. In 73 they offered the 1592 long stroke 1600. In 74 they went to the 1800-this year has bigger overiders on the early style bumpers.

From 75-78 you had what are referred to as the beginning of the big bumper cars. In addition the ride height was raised on the cars to meet US bumper requirements, just as happened to the MGB. Once you put gas shocks on these cars the ass end sits way up. These cars are the least desirable of the series due to a complex power robbing emissions system.

In 79 they launched the Spider 2000 (early car were the 124 Sport Spider) with extensive revisions, such as a fragile rear end, previoul mentioned by another poster, different door handles, tail lights, the "big bump" or "D Cup" hood. Many items big ans small were changed during this major freshening. -I mentioned the 79 and 80 carb versions above. The FI equipped cars are among the most desirable cars due to the Bosch fuel inject on the later versions. They are easier started as mention but they just don't rev like the early cars, everything is pretty much over but some noise after 5k. I prefer the pure, earl;y cars, 71 or 72 being the best of the bunch.

One other big problem area is the front cross member cracking and starting to pull away from the frame. inspect this on any car before buying, it is a big job to change it.

PB

 

Sunracer: you're right about the 79s being carbed. My shop was in LA so we only saw FI models starting with 1980. I honestly don't recall ever seeing a 79 2000 in CA.

And you are also correct on the subframe problem in the front end. I forgot that one! A very common problem.

Oh how the memories flow back.....

 

The 2000 designation was for 2.0 liter engine, not fuel injection. The switch from 1800 to 2000 occured earlier than the switch from carb to FI as the 79's had mounds of smog stuff that didn't work well anyway and was best removed. I've seen 80's that were carb'd because that were late 79 productions that got sold as 80 models. It wasn't nearly as clean as the numeric designations would imply.

The 1608 WAS the 1600 Spider engine, though Fiat made several other 1600 engines, there was only one in the Spider, the 1608, and it was not anything like as fast as the carb'd 1800, let alone the FI 2 liter unless you had a huge carb on it, and even then it wouldn't blow the doors off, I've seen 1608's (just for clarity, but no Fiat people say it that way) with big carbs and unless they have hotter cams and improved exhaust, they will in no wise measure up to an FI 2 liter, they are just not even close. The 1600 became the 1800, the 1800 became the 2000. Carbs and FI switch did not concur with the 1800 to 2000. Here's one for you, I've seen both FI 79's and carb'd 80's, bone stock, no joke. Once you've seen several hundred Fiats, this is nothing out of the ordinary. You see, Fiat just had all these Spiders laying aroud brought in shipments just across town from Pinin', slap a door badge on a bunch of them, and put the things on ships and sent them over to sell, because they were selling at the time. Maybe it was a carb'd 79, maybe it was FI, though this tended only to happen very late in the 79-80 era, which is also the time which Fiat was making the most Spiders, and the American cars were kept in separate groups form the Euro cars. The typical union worker sorting inventory would not have given a rat's if he messed up a few as long as the cars were on the boat. Fiat was selling more cars around this time than it had ever sold before. Typical Italian mismatch, an assembly work, depending on the shift would put FI on a 79 just as quickly as he would put a carb on an 80 as the flow was not linear, they came in batches in the form of 'rigs' from the Fiat factory, fitted, then sent back to Fiat to ship. Only when Pinin took over final assembly in 1983 did things get better.

The same goes for many parts on Spiders. Italians were just that way, the same with Ferrari years having last years wheels or steering wheels, or parts. Italians are just like that. Which contributes to Fiat being, however strangely, decidedly Italian.

 

Thanks. My 71 Coupe had the 1608 and it was a sweet engine.

 

That's not to say the 1608 wasn't a good engine, I loved mine. And it is correctly stated that it was the engine in the 124 Coupe. Neat little cars, never owned one, drove and saw a bunch. Those are actually desirable cars these days. They are much more rare than Spiders.

 

Ya know I remember replacing a lot of front A arms and ball joints too on the 124. Rarely does an Alfa need that but Alfas need the rear trailer arm bushings replaced in almost every car over 50k. U joints also on the Alfa don't last much longer.

It's interesting as people tend to lump the two cars together -- both made at the same time, both Italian, both 2 liter F I twin cams, both convertibles, both 5 speeds, both with all around disc brakes, etc. But the Alfa and the 124 could not be farther apart from one another on almost every level.