Nothing takes the cake like a timely photo!
If you are doing your major soon, consider installing the standard Gold Kit as well as the kit for the MAF's, Igniters, O2 sensors and Fuel Rails. I just completed these installations and while I did it with the engine in, parts - if not all - of it would have been much easier engine out and the benefit is apparent before you even finish and fire the engine up. As I did the installation I discovered enough corrosion in the wires where they were crimped to the OEM pins to know that the corrosion was at least a secondary contributor to the CEL's I was regularly getting pre-install. I was a believer in the Gold Kit when I first started reading about it a year ago and firmly believe anyone with a 348 needs at least the Standard Kit. The baseline on my car was very good to begin with, but the post installation ECU reset/warmup I just did 3 days ago was proof that what I thought was good could be better. Much better.
Hold it just a minute Dave. Don't go and put lumps on your head just yet. I'm guessing you are referring to my insistence to get an aluminum radiator. Here is a portion of an article from one of the companies I'm considering using to make my radiators. "The thermal conductivity or heat transfer rate of copper is 92% versus aluminum which is approximately 49%. However, the copper fin bonded to the tubes, or water passages, using lead solder is very inefficient and slows the heat transfer rate to just slightly better than that of aluminum. This can be a disadvantage of copper if the bonding process does not allow the copper fin to touch the brass tube, and why not all copper/brass cores of similar design, but different manufactures, transfer heat equally. Copper/brass radiators, because of their weight and durability, have been around a long time and can be easily disassembled and reassembled for cleaning purposes. Not the case with aluminum, unless speaking of the O.E. version that comes with crimp mounted plastic tanks. As a result the life expectancy of the aftermarket aluminum radiators will be far less than that of copper/brass. To better understand the function and performance of any given radiator it helps to understand the cooling process and think of it in a way that allows for comparison. The words cooling, or better cooling, or efficient cooling are thrown around a lot in advertising and promotional terms but for the most part un-quantifiable at best without a reference or yardstick to measure by. To measure and control the cooling processes you have to take several variables into consideration. Variables include engine temperature production at different rpms, or engine operating btu output, coolant absorption rates, coolant flow rates, or gpms, and coolant temperature reduction rates that will vary with the size of the radiator and the amount of (cfms), speed, and temperature of the air flowing through the radiator. The only device to actually compare one radiator vs. another with absolute control is to have a wind-tunnel that can duplicate actual driving conditions under various specified conditions. U.S. Radiator built a radiator dyno or test stand in 1999 and tested every core design and manufacture, in both copper/brass and aluminum, for plain and simple temperature drop, inlet to outlet, at specific and controlled parameters. So what did US Radiator learn? First and foremost, they discovered that where the radiator is concerned core design and NOT material had the greatest effect on temperature drop. While all radiator cores might look the same they perform differently based on tube spacing and fins per inch. Heat transfer points where temperature is actually allowed to leave the radiator are where the fin is bonded to the tube. The more transfer points, the greater the temperature drop. A 60s core for example had a 1/2 tube spacing (ie, 1/2 fin between the tubes) and by going from a two row radiator to a four row core design they were able to double the heat transfer points which resulted in a 15-20% increase in temperature drop without changing the other variables (air flow, coolant flow). In the 80's the Japanese came out with a core design in response to the need to down size, which has become the standard, and was efficient enough to allow the re-introduction of aluminum (a less efficient heat transfer material) at the O.E. level. By changing the tube spacing to 3/8", a design referred to as High Efficiency in the industry, more tubes or water passages and fins were allowed across the face of a core with a specific width in inches. The design was simple enough but proved to be very efficient in that more heat transfer points created greater temperature drop inlet to outlet. At this point the move to aluminum construction was purely financial in that raw materials are purchased by the pound and a finished aluminum radiator weighs about 25% of a copper/brass unit (dollars per pound being almost equal at that time) and resulted in huge savings to the O.E.s . This is why weve seen most copper/brass manufactures either switch to aluminum or fold up their tents permanently. It is important to note that this decision was based solely on financial savings and should not be confused with more efficient. In fact the tests that US Radiator conducted, resulted in almost exact temperature drops, aluminum vs. copper/brass, at all operating ranges where the core design was the same with a slight advantage going to the copper/brass unit (even against their own aluminum units)." After having read that, and then talking to them over the phone, this another reason I am considering getting a custom aluminum tank made. Again keep in mind that I REFUSE to pay what Ferrari's current asking price is for the little half radiator. NOT gonna happen even at "half price" of the current asking price. I will see if I can get it repaired first. So if my plan isn't all that great, what is better, and more cost effective for a do-it-yourselfer like me? You have been at this waaaaaaaaaaaaay longer than I have. What's the better game plan?
Ernesto, Don't you think a repair is going to be much more economical than a new replacement, even after you fix the cheap-azzed Eyetalian part a few times? Just saying'... Let put it another way. You went down this road with the headers and spent maybe more than you wished for a perceived improvement. Perhaps you need to rethink this to take the path of least resistence and cost. KISS is my motto. No need to over-complicate things. At this point can't we just get the b!tch working and on the road again? Hey the stock unit lasted 18 years. That's not bad. I actually repaired my old M3 unit twice and it was still less than buying a new radiator and it had plastic tanks. That's what they do now. Anyway, keep your exhuberance in check! That b1tch of a car is not worth it!
Ernie, You are way overthinking the problem. I don't doubt the research but the real life execution equalizes plastic headers, copper cores and aluminum cores. It is very unlikely that you will find someone to make zero compromises and build custom the ultimate radiator as any cost. Besides what is the point? The 348 does not need extra cooling or better cooling and you will gain nothing from it. I raced the 348 and the cooling was fine. You are my friend and I do not intend to be mean but after reading your last post I'm pretty convinced you still are not seeing the flowers from the trees. Your 348 will never be in decent running condition in your lifetime without a completely different approach. If we could get your wife on board and a budget the stooges need to do an "intervention" on your car. You know like the TV show "OVERHAULIN".
You know I just don't get you guys? I hear, "If you are gonna do it, do it right". Then I go and do the research, and now I'm told "You are over thinking the problem". If I repair the radiator, that would be cheaping out. If I get a custom one made, that is over doing it, and I'm reinventing the wheel. Yet if I buy the oem unit for $2,300.....well..... frankly that's just plain STUPID. And now I need an "intervention". WTF?????? What's the deal then? It seems like no matter what I do, it's a catch 22? So what gives? What is this "completely different approach?"
You're asking a bunch of guys with no stake in the outcome for advice and you're confused that it doesn't make sense or is inconsistent? Let me help: If you don't want the car anymore... sell it and be happy. If you do want the car then fix it and be happy. It seems pretty simple to me. There's no catch 22 because whatever is said here means zero. The only thing that matters is your happiness.
i would take it to a radiator shop and see if they could fix it first. If they can't,-- get one made. If it fails after they fix it-- get one made. good luck
Ernie, Not trying to piss you off. Look back a few posts both Dave and I said basically the same thing. Plan, plan, plan! Decide what you want to do with the car... street, streetfighter, dual use trackcar, or racecar. Then map out what systems you need to change to do that. Then prioritize that list. Evaluate the compromises of cost vs. perfection. A proper radiator repair is not a cheap out. A new radiator that does the job is not a bad repair as long as you completely think out the system and how it works vs. just putting a no-compromises radiator from the space shuttle in there. Then forumulate a reasonable budget. This will budget will tell you if you "want" to afford this car or sell it and just buy a good one all sorted. Will you or what will you allow compromise on? This is a plan just like a business plan to start a business. If you car was a good car you could just put in a radiator and get on with your life. But we all know you car is torturing you and you got to start from scratch or sell it. The old cliche "those who fail to plan, "plan to fail"" is true.
^ This is good advice, something I usually don't say about his fatness. We're saying, fix the radiator. Start at the simplest and least costly option. Let's get together and talk about where you want the car to go, what you want it to be. I have my ideas. It's your car, dude. We just want you to be happy. We're your support group, your Ferrari Owners Annonymous, if you will. Plus we can't wait to tear your beast apart on a new Stooge project.
Fix the broken one and you'll have plenty of time to decide if you need another (new one) and to find out which NEW radiator will be best for you, your car and your wallet too!
Ernie, You going to have that beast on the road for Super Car Sunday at the end of the month. After everything youve done your not going to let one little radiator leak stop you.
Ernie, there are good problems to have and there are bad problems to have. I spent the better part of today trying to ablate (kill) a gentleman's metastatic colon cancer in his liver. You're problems are all good ones to have. You were given very good advice by your brethren and particularly by Delp. Life is short. Do whatever makes you happy. Jay
More power to ya. I could never, ever, not in a million-jillion years, not for all the money in the world, do your job. Dale
No I'm not gonna let a little radiator leak stop me. It will get fixed eventually. But right now I'm in the middle of teaching my son how to rebuild the engine is his car. We finished pulling it a couple of days ago, and are tearing it down so we can send the appropriate parts off to the machine shops. Plus money that would have been used to get the radiator repaired/made are going to this project right now. So the radiator in the red lemon can wait. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thanks Jay. That REALLY puts things in prospective. I hope everything works out for the better with your patient.
I actually agree with Vince and Lunchbox... KISS, just fix the OEM radiator, it'll be good as new and proven to properly cool the motor. Just because its the cheapest option, doesn't mean its the worst option! Your perspective on this is all jacked up on this... KISS!
That's the plan SteveO. When I get around to it I will take the radiator to have it repaired. If.........it is unrepairable then...........I will look at the other options. But first I have to finish the current build project I'm in. So it will be a while yet before the radiator gets tackled.
It's funny you mention the good vs. bad problems. I always used to say "When I complain that my problems are the windows in my boat leak or there is a scratch on my Ferrari, I don't have real problems." I don't know Ernie, but I used to work in a radiator shop way back when. I would say try to get the old one repaired if you can. Depending on where and why it's leaking, they might be able to fix it. If they can't, you're not out anything and then you can pursue a replacement. Good luck with getting it done... etip
OK Ernie, why are you being silly and quoting that stuff about a $2300 radiator? Read the posts that say; $600, FREE, ...
Ernie, you are looking at the problems with this Red Sled while sighting through a straw. We are just trying to get you to throw the straw away and start viewing the problems through an empty toilet paper roll. You would be amassed how simple things can become when you see a slightly bigger picture. The Explanation: Who gives two****s about a radiator leak.... that is the least of your problems. As I stated in our conversation, there are good cars that warrant proper repairs and there are mutts that warrant TRIAGE repairs in an attempt to identify if a proper repair is justified. For a fraction of the money spent on incredibly nice headers (dont even think to preach about things being expensive, no one will listen after that), something that made no head way towards an end goal..... most of the problems plaguing you could have likely been resolved. Hanging ear rings on a pig gives you a stylish pig now needing lipstick. Making a plan to resolve the issues in a logical method and then hang ear rings on a rough car that runs well... that is called "Restoration". Bdelp was partially right, we have no stake in this fight. I have spent hours on this car and have never seen it. Don't think for a nano second there was any chance of that being profit motivated. The words "Profit", "Shop" and "Ernie" don't even belong on the same site together let alone in the same thread, only a fool would think otherwise... that is friendship, ONLY. There is a great interview with the retiring director of NASA regarding how the culture and thought process has changed over the years and how we need to get back to the roots of how things were done in the past. As the cars get more complex and complicated, the same is required in this field if any forward progress is to be made. The Plan: You choose to live in Looney Land where even a perfectly functional emissions system is outlawed if it has the wrong name on it. Your choice, you voted for it, now you have to live with it and work within those parameters. You chose to break the law and be a Rebel by building headers and putting them on a street car. Lets "ASSUME" you can BS your way around that and get tabs to legally use the car on public roads in Happyville. Safety first! Four wheels that point in the same direction and brakes that will stop it reliably in the event you can push it down a steep hill. Have that? Seat belts? If the Mice are dead get some rope and tie yourself in it. Move to step two. The trans and clutch are done, that puts power to the wheels in the event you can make the engine make stink. Move to step 3. Now we come to the focal point of the Ernie ***** Feast. I know first hand what has been done to the wiring in that car. I ended up with one of your engine harnesses and it cost me thousands to fix blown Motronic ECU's and swap, re swap and re re swap harnesses in a customers car because of it. I know the workmanship of the repairs done to that harness and what was done as I had to study it for days to understand why it blew ECU's. You currently have shudders and slight miss's but that tells me you have at least 8 cylinders working at least part of the time. Any cylinder that has more than 100 PSI at sea level.... I can make it fire and produce some power, you have that, good enough. If there are a few low ones, hang the OE ceramic cats (Happyville say's you have to have them) on it as they can tolerate the extra temp caused from an incomplete combustion resulting from low compression. Your injectors are already done, next. Even lamp cord will get spark to the plugs for a little while and not hearing about you getting launched into the engine lid while working on the car..... I can only assume you are getting spark to the plugs in a somewhat consistent manner. Eric sent you his spare injector harnesses, reworked with my kit. They made a notable difference when tried and you ignored it. One tenth of the connectors on your engine were dealt with when trying Eric's harness's, it made a difference but it didn't resolve all your issues. NO****????!!!! One tenth of a job done and the results were not complete? To quote you directly... WTF is up with THAT?! Instead of doing the obvious, your plans are to rewire the entire engine with Teflon Mil Spec wire. I have 10's of thousands of feet of that wire, same amount of the silicone harness sheath for our next projects and have hundreds of hours working with all of these materials. I would be dead, gone and dust before you would finish a harness with those materials that is better than what is already on the car.... try working with and color coding Teflon wire! For a few thousand dollars you can get a shrink label maker and number the wires per the aviation industry (and UPS trucks) but to what end? Prettier ear rings? Fix the flippin car so it runs right, loosen the coolant cap and go for a ride. Who knows, you just might enjoy the car!! If you do... fix it properly, if you don't.... crap can it and use it for parts as I have located the "384 project" we spoke about. Then again, that has a zero hour cheater engine and transaxel.... and that just would not fit the MO. I'm getting a headache again and have now wasted another hour on this car and frankly THAT'S just plain STUPID! Being a slow learner as I am, even I learned that beating my head against the wall only because it feels good when I stop...... there is an outside chance that gameplan might be slightly flawed. If it were not for the damage done to the value of all the 348's, worldwide, because of this thread.... I would just set aside and walk around that wall.
Can you send the info on the custom radiator guys, I got a call thursday that I have a "seep" from BOTH F$($%$KING radiators. Going to see if they can be recored and repaired, if not I may take your route. Id appreciate the info. Paul
