10 Years After

Ten years ago, Ferrari was sitting on top of the world. After taking over ten years earlier, Luca had rescued the company from bankruptcy. The F360 was a major hit. The Spider was an even bigger one. First time buyers were lining up to pay up to $50K to $75 over MSRP. Some buyers even brought a F575 just to get on the "list." Without checking, it wouldn't surprise me to discover that Ferrari sold more cars in 2002 than it did in the last five years prior. The only real competition was the Porsche Twin Turbo or GT2.

Life was good.

But, ten years later, the world is a different place. Yes, Ferrari has more markets to sell into than before, but the competition is much tougher. Just think, for example, how many great sports cars have come on the market during the last ten years. We have seen new cars ranging from the $1MM+ Bugatti to the $60K Lotus. (Okay, Erik, I'll even throw in your $15k Fiat.) This has been a great time to be a car guy.

The real question is how are the next ten years shaping up? Granted, it would help if we knew when the Great Depression II was going to end. But, even after discounting the economy, I have to believe Ferrari's core market is changing. Take a "plain jane" F599. (Please, I hear some dealers say.) This is a monster car. Yeah, it may not be the best looking Ferrari ever made. (There is no way Ferrari will ever top a Cal Spyder.) But this is car that can and will get your driver's license shredded forever, and there are rumors of a 700hp version. However, there are still a number of these cars sitting in warehouses. Apparently, not enough of today's buyers are not that interesting in supercar performance.

Performance has always been the hallmark of Ferrari. It has always been about the feel behind the wheel. But will Ferrari have to change to survive? If 600+hp off the showroom floor doesn't float your boat, what will?

Dale

 

I know its a business, but I hope the old school passion for the cars stays constant. A lot of what I see on this forum is how the new cars are too refined and easy to drive.(not necessarily a bad thing) This is obviously what the market is demanding because there's a waiting list. I would love to see a car like the F40 again, with a stick. There has to be buyers out there that want this, even in low numbers. I know I would. I think that the big names in the industry today; Ferrari, McLaren, Porsche, Lambo and such are making cars very similar and Ferrari is losing some of its essence. Although I see them as a leader in the car market, there just not that different anymore. But yes, there is a whole lot more competition today than in the past.

 

The problem with making long term business plans during times of euphoria is....

The curve doesn't "keep going up".

There is a Circle of Life, young Simba, and thanks to the Great Market Robbery of 2008, we won't see an 'up' indicator until you and I are long in the ground.....

If the number of Ferraris doesn't match the Investment Bankers of Wall Street (and China and Hong Kong) today, they have real problems.

There's only so many rappers and ball players, and they cannot drive for sheeit.....

Maybe they'll 'make it' on ball caps and t shirts.........
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Funny, I feel the same way. In fact I'm a little tortured by it. When I first bought my 360, I had felt priviliged to be part of the lucky few to have such an exotic. However, a couple of months after, I started getting (dare I say) bored of the car... With all the refinements
that technology has to offer, I found the 360 not to be as engaging as I would have presumed. I am by no means knocking the car, cause for what it may have lacked for me as a driver, more than made up for it in the sounds and looks department.... All that being said, I sold the car last november in search of something more engaging. My 360 was F1 and I really want to get a stick. I don't care about performance as much as I used to. What I'm looking for is excitement and the pride of mastering a gated shifter. I drove F-430's, which do even less for me than the 360, so instead of upgrading to next model, I decided to go in the other direction. So I started looking at cars like the F355 or the 512TR . I find the Testarossa to be iconic in nature, maybe because of all the nostalgia during that period when it was in production. I remember this guy that had a 512TR saying how amazing the car was but that it would tire you out after a long drive. Ferrari's are not driven often in general,so each time I get in one, I want it to be out of the ordinary. Ferrari's should not feel like DD, and that is exactly what is happening to them, save the special edition cars (maybe even that). So yes, they have lost some of their essence if not alot.... Long gone are the days of the P3, a car sculpted by hand, never tested in a wind tunnel, or the 250 mm, LM, GTO. All Ferraris since the F355 are laden with software nannies to make things easier, so that it appeals to the masses and that translates to bigger markets, more units sold, more money.... So, I now question myself, is it still worth it to buy a Ferrari of new, or would I get just as big a bang for my buck with a Lotus Evora at 1/4 the price ?? I hope my gibberish made sense....

psorella

 

Both your comments are on the money. While there are an infinite number of reasons why someone buys a Ferrari, historically, performance has been the key value, not luxury or snobbery. But, it looks like things are changing. The only thing a Lotus or a Cayman lacks to become a supercar is another 150hp, which would be easy enough to do with a turbo. But how many of you brought a Lotus or a Cayman? Apparently, not many.

So while we talk a good game, our actions show a different side.

Dale

 

F40........LOL!

 

I get the emails from Hennesey......you want 'em??

We could go 'back' to Cadillac (700HP)....or even FURTHER back to Camaro (1500HP)......but the base cars are plastic crap.
Perhaps proving the point of your question.....LOL!

Leather upholstered crap.......

 

Nah, don't they make brandy?

Dale

 

No the Viper guys out in Katy, they are doing better at staying out of litigation over missing parts....LOL!

I see the Camaros out on Hwy. 6...

 

There are number of unpredictables.

First, performance is cheap. And I don't mean muscle-car-stand-on-the-accelerator performance. You can buy more power than you can use from BMW, Merc AMG, Porsche, Audi, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley, etc. In the '60s, Ferrari and maybe Jaguar were it. Today, the 458 is a great car but it is by no means alone at the top.

Second, I don't think we should assume big petrol engines are going to be important indefinitely. Porsche has done something new with the 918 Spyder, and it's a seriously fast machine. In 10 years, who knows whether we'll even have gearboxes in high end cars. We may be at a point where innovation leaves the ancient IC engine behind, and I have a hard time imagining Ferrari in that situation.

Lastly, the hand craftsmanship that made Ferrari legendary in the '60s, and has fizzled out since the '70s, is probably gone for good. It's all science and math now, and that doesn't bode well for Ferrari being all that differentiated from other marques. (Bentley, Lambo, Rolls and Aston have the same issue, btw... ) Technology has also made recent Ferraris look more Asian in flavor -- no more egg crates and classical curves.

 

That's a very interesting point. Chris Harris, in the EVO comparison of 288 GTO vs. Porsche 959, made a similar point on analog vs. digital. He mentioned in the 80's, it was Porsche which was on the forefront of technology, and the Ferrari more old-school. It was evident in their halo cars: the 959 had really advanced technology (at the time) straight from Porsche's Le Mans racers, what with sequential turbos, all wheel drive, etc. The result of that comparison: the 288 won outright.

Now, when he compared the GT3 RS vs the 458, the situation was inverted. The Porsche was the old-school one, while the 458 had the latest tech from Formula 1. The RS won that comparison...

I guess it depends if you look at Ferrari's tech advances as a good thing or bad thing. I personally think it's a very good thing, because excessive nostalgia towards the past can be detrimental. But of course, I can see why people might think otherwise.

 

Lino, you know that this car has your name written on it!!!

http://www.ferrariquebec.com/?p=126

 

too much technology in Ferrari's these days. f1 tranny, asf, etc. They need to go back to making raw cars. Ones that will scare away all but the most die hard enthusiasts.

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45228

 

I don't think Ferrari is about building fun to drive cars. They are about building the car that goes around the track fastest, regardless of feel, look, etc.

 

I'll throw something out, just to play devil's advocate: It's not Ferrari which arbitrarily decides not to instill manual transmission and adds electronic nannies / computers, it's the market which chooses for these cars. I know we all claim that the true enthusiast would pick manual over dual clutch, but the truth is for a given car offered with both (such as the F430), over 90% manufactured have the paddle shifters. This is even more evident in Lambo's transmissions -- 99% of their customers go for the E-gear rather than a manual. When you're a profitable business, the last thing you want to do is cater to the minority at a monetary loss.

If the majority of Ferrari buyers wanted a manual transmission go-kart with a V8/V12, Ferrari would have manufactured it. But the truth is, there isn't a demand for one.

 

The only manual I've driven in my life was a 70,000 lb fuel truck on National Airport. I didn't want a manual. I did in fact start buying Ferrari's because of the F1 tranny. But ironically, I've fallen in love with many of the older models and find that the only car that might get me to one day buy a manual and learn to drive it well is Ferrari. I want a Red Barchetta as my extra f car some day. If that's ever a real possibility, I'll buy some beat up $2k POS off craigslist with a manual I can can fry getting used to it before. Ferrari may be doing F1's to attract more customers, but it's turned me into an enthusiast and that's some day going to have me driving a manual.

 

The market and the buyers are changing big time. I have numerous Ferrari's and Lambo's at the shop at any given time, they hardly get a glance anymore..some even say they wouldn't be caught dead in one, and these people can well afford anything Ferrari or lambo has to offer. I have taken a few of these people for rides in the cars, and needless to say, they come away unimpressed. "Too clunky, too rough, to noisey, half a mill for this??".

I can see their point. I drove just today a Murcialgo, and a BMW M6 convertable,back to back, gotta tell ya, I think I would take the M6 if given the choice. It's just a better machine overall.

I think people are starting to realize that the supercars aren't so super anymore. Mini vans with 300hp out accelerating Ferrari 328's hell even 348's for that matter. Corvettes that will run circles in reverse around a 360 and 430 for less then half the money and less hassle in servicing.

People are more educated and with the internet you have the ability to to research while your sitting on the toilet. Once the true value comes to light, and when you read everythng there is you can think of about the cars or cars you are looking at, it seems more and more, the Ferrari's are closer to the bottom of the pile then at the top for buyers looking to get into somthing exciting to drive.

Of course there will always be buyers for the cars, but the fasenation with them has all but disappeared.

 

I don't agree with the previous post,and so what if a mini van is faster then a 328,heck a mini is quicker than 250SWB so what,I think you are missing the Ferrari DNA,and that's ok.BTW around here Lambos and Ferraris get plenty of glances even in my old 328.

 

I can name 16 [Formula 1 Championship] reasons why the fascination with Ferrari is alive and well.

IMHO

 

There isn't a car on the road that gets more cheers and thumbs up than a ferrari. Nobody's going to cheer a porsche, or audi, a mclaren. A lot of great cars aren't universally recognized. Far as I'm concerned, and I'll duck some shoes or rotten tomatoes for this one, I think Maserati's, Astons and Jaguars pretty much all look the same from a distance. Nobody is going to cheer an Aston driving by. I don't think anyone would cheer an SLR. And I really don't believe Ferrari is on track to lose that. I'm not a big fan of the 458 look as a coupe, but that car as a Spider is going to be awe inspiring, and it's not going to look like a rice rocket. I realize I'm relatively new and may not see what some of you see, the trend. But maybe some of you have been around so long that you need perspective as well. I thought about getting into ferrari's over a decade ago and walked away. I think today's lineup is far greater, enough power, too, and that wasn't the case then with all models. Looks to me like they're on the right track, not the wrong one. Now the FF, eh, well, uh, not sure.

 

Want cheers? Get an old Fiat 500.

Tons of choices these days, in all categories. From the mental Veyron/Enzo-league to stripped out Lotus Exige and all the way to the "super sleepers" as the BMW M5...
Great time to be a car guy. I just happen to love the cars of the 90's (just the right amount of technology and reliability) so most of the cars I lust after are attainable. Although I wouldn't mind an Aston Martin DBS...

 

So many great points on this thread I'm not sure I can add any more but let me try....

I think the next 10 years are going to be tough on Ferrari. They have long past the point of diminishing returns on performance. For all the talk about how everyone wants a raw enthusiast car, please tell that to the folks who are upside down in their Scuds. The demand ain't that great.

Also I made the point in another thread about reliability. When even Kias and Hyundais run 100K miles with little or no service issues, people will simply demand more from Ferrari in terms of reliability. "You want me to spend $300K on a car and 7000 miles will be considered high mileage?" That's simply going to harder to reconcile going forward.

In short, Ferrari has mostly always been able to compete in a single dimension, performance. In the future, they are going to have to compete on performance, luxury, reliability, technology and who knows what else. -- And I'm not sure that's the Ferrari way.

 

Bottom line?

Nostalgia is highly over rated.

If you want to drive an old banger, buy one. But, but... before you do, you should read an old article in Road & Track about a guy who picks up a 275 GTB at Chinetti and drives it to the coast. The guy had a sense of humor and adventure. However, at the end of day, Ferraris were never meant as transportation.

Things change. Life moves on. I'm not doubting Ferrari's sense of where the market is headed. But, this doesn't mean I have to buy into it. Lately, I've been eyeing Testarossas. Damn cars don't make any sense. Farrah, I hear you calling me. I mean if you're gonna go down, why not do down in flames?

Dale
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Now I think I'm going down to the well tonight
and I'm going to drink till I get my fill
And I hope when I get old I don't sit around thinking about it
but I probably will
Yeah, just sitting back trying to recapture
a little of the glory of, well time slips away
and leaves you with nothing mister but
boring stories of glory days

Bruce Springsteen