Front Windows Inop - is this common?

Hi everyone - I am in the process of trying to resurrect a 85 Cabrio QV that was stored for a couple of years, and as the new owner I am finding all kinds of electrical problems. Most I have been able to resolve through Fchat, but a few I'm stuck on and could really use some help on!

The front windows (both left and right) have no motion whatsoever. They are currently down, and when I hit the console switch there is no motion or anything. I have replaced fuses, relays, and lubricated the switches & cycled them a lot. Everything else in the doors work fine (lights, power locks, power mirrors) but the windows won't budge. I pulled panels, and stuck a multimeter on the window lift motor leads while connected with ignition accessory switch on. Without pushing switch, no voltage - when I move up or down on switch I get +5vdc and -5vdc....this tells me all my switches are working at least!

Is this a case of not enough voltage getting to the motors? I measured with the leads still connected - should I be seeing 12Vdc instead? Is it safe for me to disconnect motor wires and connect leads direct to a spare battery and see if that makes the motors run? It doesnt appear to be a mechanical blockage, and once I get the motors working I have white lithium that I will lube up with (just did it to rear windows and they work great now!).

Not sure if this is related, but the glovebox does not open either. I have also cleaned the switch, changed fuses and relays, but still cannot get it to open - are these related problems?

Any help would be appreciated! I've traced through the wiring diagrams in detail, and verified connections best as I can but still no luck! Thanks!

 

Sounds like you have already done this but you mentioned you lubricated the switches and cycled them. I used deoxit a product to remove oxidation. I pulled the center panel (after disconnecting battery) applied liberally to switches and cycled them and let them dry. After that my glove box came back to life and with regular use has not been a problem. 5 volts is low, might still be some oxidation in the window switches. You can also use the deoxit on any plugs assocated with the window system.

On the windows it may also be that the grease in the gearbox has taken a set. If you are getting power to the motor you might try putting them up with the switch and also gently lifting the glass just by grabbing it where it sticks out the top of the door.

Good luck, report back.

 

I did try to clean the switches using an electronic tv tuner cleaner from Radio Shack - it did help on the rear window switches but no luck on the others. I did it with the switches still installed in the console. I will remove the switches from the console and give them a more thorough cleaning and cycling.

I did try to lift the windows by pushing them up (have panels off so can access them inside the door) but no luck - would not budge at all. Is it safe for me to connect 12VDC battery direct to the motors? If 5V is low, should it be 12V normally? If that is the case, that may be enough to get them moving, then I can pull up on the windows, and get the old grease out of the tracks. If I need to regrease the main motor, do I need to remove it from the window/car to do that, or can it be done with the unit still installed?

 

Since you said cabrio, I'm wondering how the rear windows are doing? [or did the 85 not have power rear windows?]

IF they work, try swapping the connectors from the rears to the front and see if that works.

You didn't mention sound, but only motion. Is there any buzzing to the front motors?

IF some sound to front motors, then I suspect not enough power as you state as suspect both would go ou the same time. Unless this was stored outside. If no sound or voltage to the motors, it is of course the circuit from switch to motor.

 

The rear windows are power, and they seem to work ok. They did have the problem of old/bad lube, but once I cleaned the switches it helped a lot. I then cleaned out the old dried grease and relubed it with the white lithium per everyone's suggestions - back windows go up and down no problem.

The car was stored inside here in the Los Angeles area, so it was never subjected to direct weather, temp extremes, or humidity. There is absolutely no sound whatsoever from the motors - they are totally silent. I did measure so I know for a fact there is voltage to the motors, but at only +-5V. Are these motors designed to operate at 5VDC, or do I have some kind of voltage/current drop somewhere? If they are designed to operate at 12VDC, then I will connect up a battery direct and see if that helps - but would like to know if that would be safe to do. Last thing I want to do is be dumb and fry my window motors!!

I will try to swap the front and back window switches later to see if that helps - thanks!

 

No problem to connect the window motors directly to the spare battery for a test; they are supposed to work at 12V.
Up and down works with switching the + and -.
However, if they are stuck (old grease) the integrated cut-off switch will stop them from moving, much in the same manner as it cuts power when the windows hit the top or down stops.
If you keep applying power, you'll hear a regular click from the motors when the power is allowed back and cuts again.
(It is always safe to include a fuse in the power line from the battery)

PS: WD40 ont the axles/drivewheel for a test?

 

The window motors work at 12 VDC. They will not work at 5 VDC. I fixed mine by installing relays in the doors, operating the relay coils with the window switches, at running a 12 Ga wire from the fuse block to the relay contacts. Windows now work like new. However, the first thing to try is a direct wire (plus and ground) from the baqttery to the motor.

 

I will give this a try today, but if the cutoff switch engages where and how do I reset it? As for the lubrication, other threads said not to use WD40 so I have white lithium grease that I was going to apply to all moving parts.

 

No need to reset the switch, it automatically resets itself. It's built in, it just trips when the current goes up once the motor locks at the end of the travel.
Try 12V first, I am pretty sure 5V won't move a thing. Adding the relays in the door is the best solution I think. Works perfectly on mine. You can find the wiring diagram in F-chat. The most tricky part really is getting the power wires into the doors via the door jam
I suggested DW40 in case some of the axles on the motor have seized, and you can spray it "at distance" - the motors are not exactly accessible easily.

 

I tried everything suggested this weekend, and had some success. I disconnected the motor wiring, tested it seperatey, and found out the switches work perfect and I was getting 12Vdc to the motors. I removed the motors and gearing assembly, and found very heavy corrosion in both motors (see pic). I also opened up the window gearing assembly, and found the grease to basically become a solid material. I scraped as much off as I could without damaging the gearing, and then lubricated both the main gears and the drive worm gear with white lithium grease. Finally, I manually put each window into the up position and configured the winding mechanism to keep them up ( I do not have a manual window tool to crank it up).

Does anyone know what the replacement motor would be in order to replace it? I was going to take it to NAPA or Pep Boys and see if they could match it up, but if anyone knows that would help a lot! Thanks!
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As an update, I have done a LOT of looking and have confirmed that the units were originally made for SPAL, and the motor has a part number of SPAL # 35.90.18. I have found them in a few places ranging from $150-200 each - ouch! If anyone knows of an equivalent or better unit please let me know - I have been through the archives and cant find anything specific.

 

Have you considered taking the motors to an automotive generator/starter repair shop?
.... Just don't mention the word Ferrari
Dave

 

lol. I did this with the alternator a few years ago, told them it was on a boat. When I collected it and told them the truth they admitted a higher price would have been quoted, lesson learnt!

 

Wait wait wait - if you disconnected the motors from the switch and then measured the voltage you WILL get 12 v. Connect the motors back up, actuate the switch, and measure the voltage while the motor is trying to raise the window. I'll bet you'll see 5 v. The relays are the only solution.

 

As Dennis just noted, the voltage drop you saw was due to the massive amounts of current the motor was drawing in its corroded state.

The good news is that the motor draws current... you should be able to rebuild these motors! That'll save you some $$$

The bad news is that your wiring needs help. Consider installing relays... it's a relatively cheap fix with guaranteed results.

 

As Dennis said, I did measure it when it was connected but it was only the 5V draw. The motors are corroded and seized solid - the one in the photo is in much better shape than the other unit, and both are locked tight. I will try to dissasseble and clean them to see if I can get them working again, but if not will have to buy new ones. Good news (relatively) is that I found brand new ones for $115 each, so if I have to replace them at least have an option.

I will definately look to install a relay in there to help protect them in the future, and keep them operating fast. My next window challenge will be to get one of the rear windows unstuck....one works great and the other doesnt move, but I do know it gets power and the motor is trying.....will refer to other fchat threads for info on that one....

 

$115 isn't bad. Relays will likely allow the windows to go faster. My car doesn't have them, just takes a bit longer. $230 and you have working windows. Only track your time such as you would notches on the bedpost, as a mark of pride. You will be able to say that you successfully repair your own Ferrari.

 

I know that this is a pretty old post, but do you have a source for the window motors? (Just the motors, not the entire "window regulator" assembly.)

Thanks.

--Jeremy

 

Just as a suggestion, the OP put in the SPAL part number. I have put part numbers into Google or Yahoo and usually get sellers of the part. Spend some time and look around at them. Rock Auto tends to have good prices but I haven't looked in this case. If you have your motors out the part number should be listed on them, good luck!