There is also much Alfa-Romeo 33 stradale in this design...
Totally agree with this, infact it is extremely similar ... so similar it is the same design with very minor updates. I'd say Giugiaro has got his story wrong and confused ... happens to everybody over time. Pete T33 Stradale image from: http://www.seriouswheels.com/1960-1969/1968-Alfa-Romeo-33-Stradale-Red-sa.htm Image Unavailable, Please Login
Pete, I think you got that backwards Giugiaro left Bertone in 65-66 he did the drawings before he left Bertone ..............and the Alfa didn't come out till 67. Bizzarrini used the design in 66.
Because at the time those shots were taken they didn't know, it was thought that the Manta was the LeMans car, but it makes sense being this is the only car that Bizzarrini made using folded metal or telaio profilato technique.
Could you advise me some links when I can more read about cooperation between Giugiaro and Bizzarrini during creating the Manta concept? I always thought Manta was the ex' LeMans P538 car
These cars were built in very small numbers, hence very few people know the history about them. As a consequence very little has been written. The best source I know of is Jack Koobs De Hartogs book on P538's. http://www.amazon.com/Bizzarrini-P538-Jack-Koobs-Hartog/dp/B003CDLXMG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1304710568&sr=8-1
No, not at all. Bizzarrini simply used the design first for the P358, but what I am saying is the P358 is the Alfa Romeo T33 Stradale design not the Muira prototype, and he is getting his story mixed up. The P358 looks absolutely NOTHING, I mean nothing, like a Muira but looks rediculously close to the Stradale. Pete
Unfortunately I cann't buy book at this time. Were these used P538 parts were the parts from first crashed chassis? Interesting question also. Why Giotto called car as P538 if the first and two chassis were by 3500 V12 engine?
Hartog have just copied part of my archives, then if you want to read infos, get the Yellow Bizzarrini book
The Lambo car was a special order, and they crashed the first one, so a second built. Bizzarrini always liked the 327 and used it in most of his race cars, although he designed the Lambo. 327 = P538
Gandini was a design genius. To suggest otherwise is silly. Look at the Countach, for example. That car alone cements his status. I don't agree with the thought that Gandini merely took Giugiaro's Miura design and tweaked it. This clearly understates Gandini's input to the Miura. The Koob de H book indicates that the Giugiaro design you identify is a rejected design proposal for the Miura. I agree; to my eye this particular Giugiaro design bears not a lot of resemblance to the final Miura. If it is the basis for the final Miura, then my point that Gandini had more than token input into the design of the final Miura is affirmed. There may or may not be another Giugiaro design that bears more resemblance to the final Miura, but if this is the example that borne the Miura, then clearly there was a lot more refinement that went into the final design. In passing I would also add that a good portion of design is to take existing shapes, elements, etc. and refining them. Imitation is indeed the highest form of flattery when it comes to design. It is a rare situation were a totally new design has no commonality with some elements of existing design. The ones that are, are either complete classics or completely unpleasing, rarely mediocre.
Both men designed cars their body of work stands on it's own. Nothing is designed in a vacuum. I can see the basic shapes that today don't seem that radicle, but at that time they were very different. IMO Gandini did not come to the table with a blank sheet of paper.
Originally Posted by Olczyk Hartog have just copied part of my archives, then if you want to read infos, get the Yellow Bizzarrini book Yes, Philippe what are you trying to say ??? As far as I know you went 1st to Hartog to make the Bizzarrini book all together with Rodolph de Biolley, isn'it ? Can you clarifiy for our whole community your comment ?
I just say the truth, De Biolley pay 10 000 $ just to have in name on the cover, Hartog came to see me with copy machines papers and stolen 72 DPI photos from internet and ask me if I will agree to make a book with him, after review his work, I put everythings in the garbage and start the book with my archives. Then I made the book and agree to keep him on the cover because I was nice(made a mistake)( for his contribution, I agree to give him 350 books free of charge,he took 500 books as I was not there when he came to pick them up ), after Hartog ask me to be partner with me again on the Alfa TZ book and this time, I say no, as his contribution had no values at all, he did get upset as now, he was seeing himself as God and he start to claim that the first book was from him..... If you had the opportunity to look his P538"book" , compare this with the yellow Bizzarrini book and you will understand who made the FIRST BOOK, and who is professionnal. Don t get me wrong, I have nothings against him, but I want to have nothings to do with him ! I known that the truth is going to hurt some people but if you don t want to hear the truth, don t ask for it
Here the quote from my correspondence with ItalDesign. What do you think? Q: Probally, Bizzarrini Manta is based on the Bizzarrini P538 chassis. Is this the same car which starts in the 1966 Le Mans race? A: It’s difficult to trace back to the original chassis, it was a one-off vehicle design. Bizzarrini had never produced a rear-engined vehicle, while the Manta stemmed precisely from the idea of Bizzarini mechanicals with the engine to the rear; we started working on a chassis the engineer Giotto Bizzarrini obtained by modifying a model of the Grifo Competizione which had a tubular structure. We therefore took this as the starting point for our research, with a view to constructing a vehicle for the 1968 Turin Motor Show.
Sounds like they used parts of a Bizzarrini which makes sense. I don't see how any part of the 5300 frame could be used. The 5300 is a Iso tub in the middle with tubular structure up front and rear, similar to the way a E type is made. With the engine being up front it seems difficult to use these pieces to make a mid engine car, except for the tub, but that is not used at all on a P538. Brakes and rotors yes, engine yes.
Thanks for your version of the facts Philippe. I'm not hurt, but it is interesting to know each point of view.
