Another 430 Header Question

I am not an expert, but am becoming so because I live in fear of header failure aka HFP (Header Failure Paranoia).

1. What is the white powder that appears in the engine bay? I have seen many broken and cracked headers in cars and boats and have only seen black soot.
TRENT: It is my guess it is insulation.

2. Is the header cracking from the hard mounts or heat?
TRENT: The majority of people agree the failure is two pronged:
A. Hard mounts for exhaust put excessive strain on Headers leading to failure of internal welds. The failure continues in the structure and is seen as: White Powder and/or Excessive noise and/or Engine Failure.
B. Original headers (MK1 aka 212631 and 212630) were less structurally sound. The MK2s seem to handle the load from the exhaust better.
2.B Does Capristo or anyone else make a rubber hanger that will bolt up and reduce vibration?
TRENT: Capristo makes a mount with springs, that is sold separately. These mounts are not listed on their site, but people on FChat have bought them separately.

3. Did the factory ever correct this problem on the assembly line? If so, what model year or date.
TRENT: I do NOT know when the factory changed from MK1 to MK2.

Ricambi (trusty sponsor) shows part numbers changed in 2008, but I do not know if this was the MK1 to MK2 changeover. If anyone knows for sure please let me know.

My reference is: http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=114216

If the 2008 part number change is the MK1 to MK2 changeover, then the following is true.
Left Side
MK1 - PN 212631 : Valid till car Nr. 157671 (Ass. Nr.74556)- -Valid till M.Y. 2008-
MK2 - PN 247594 : Valid from car Nr. 157672 (Ass. Nr.74557)- -Valid from M.Y. 2008-

Right Side
MK1 - PN 212630 : Valid till car Nr. 157671 (Ass. Nr.74556)- -Valid till M.Y. 2008-
MK2 - PN 247593 : Valid from car Nr. 157672 (Ass. Nr.74557)- -Valid from M.Y. 2008-

4. How do I tell if I have MK1 or MK2 headers? Dealer sold car new and the service records showed nothing but regular service v
TRENT: This is where my information is lacking. What I would like is an image of the plate on the MK2 from a FChat user with known MK2s on their vehicle. I will attach images of the MK1.

Aftermarket Header Options:
a. Fabspeed: $3595 USD (+$400 for ceramic coating) : fabspeed.com
b. Capristo: $5950 (with awesome heat shield) : http://www.capristoexhaust.us/
c. Agency Power: $3195 : www.agency-power.com
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Trent - what a brilliant post, I can add that my car was built in April 2008, with certainty, and I still had MK1 headers

 

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By "rattle or excessive noise", I think they really mean "total f*&ing failure".

 

Thanks Ricambi!

So with Ricambi's help; I have all of the information I need except an image of the MK2 plate.

UPDATE with info from the Tech Bulliten 1661:

3. Did the factory ever correct this problem on the assembly line? If so, what model year or date.
TRENT: From tech bulletin 1661 all F430s from Assembly # 77948 have the MK2 headers.

*Your assembly number can be found in your engine bay beside the exhaust silencer on the rear cross member. (see image)

Dealer Kits to execute Technical Bulletin 1661 : Both sides MUST be changed
MK2 - Dealer Kit PN 70001347 : Valid till M.Y. 2008- [ from Tech Bulletin 1661 ]
MK2 - Dealer Kit PN 70001346 : Valid from M.Y. 2008- [ from Tech Bulletin 1661 ]

Left Side
MK1 - PN 212631 : Valid till car Nr. 157671 (Ass. Nr.74556)- -Valid till M.Y. 2008-
MK1 - PN 223214 : Valid from M.Y. 2008- [ from Tech Bulletin 1661 ]
MK2 - PN 247596 : Valid till Nr. 157671 (Ass. Nr.74556)-M.Y. 2008- [ from Tech Bulletin 1661 ]
MK2 - PN 247594 : Valid from car Nr. 157672 (Ass. Nr.74557)- -Valid from M.Y. 2008-

Right Side
MK1 - PN 212630 : Valid till car Nr. 157671 (Ass. Nr.74556)- -Valid till M.Y. 2008-
MK1 - PN 223213 : Valid from M.Y. 2008- [ from Tech Bulletin 1661 ]
MK2 - PN 247595 : Valid till Nr. 157671 (Ass. Nr.74556)-M.Y. 2008- [ from Tech Bulletin 1661 ]
MK2 - PN 247593 : Valid from car Nr. 157672 (Ass. Nr.74557)- -Valid from M.Y. 2008-

One more thing; Brambleworth you have a beautiful F430! This is the color way i would have chosen if I didn't already have a porsche in it.
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strangely Mk1 & Mk2 look very similar except where the OBD2 sensor is, but despite that actually sound very different but one cannot see what is under the metal casing

 

Q1: How helpful would the bracket change really be?
TRENT: It will postpone or maybe prevent the failure by relieving stress on the headers. I think it is only part of the solution.

In order of importance:
1. Replace headers:
Option-A. Get MK2 headers if you have any failure symptoms on your MK1's or can otherwise convince your dealer to replace them. Its a Tech bulletin, and they do not have to replace the MK1 unless the MK1s show signs of failure.
Option-B. Get aftermarket headers that are much stronger and do not induce catastrophic engine failure if the headers fail. List of aftermarket headers in previous post.

2. Get new exhaust mounts. Sorry to hear the Capristo representative was unfriendly and unhelpful. I recommend calling Capristo directly.

3. Replace exhaust with lighter component. Titanium or Stainless.

4. Replace Catalytic converters with 200 cell cats to reduce weight, thus reducing header loading.

I plan on buying:
==============
1. Aftermarket headers, probably Fabspeed ceramic coated the next time they run a group purchase (or they PM me with a great price ). I do NOT want MK2s, Ferrari can keep them. No I don't care that they are free and installed for free. Its a bad design to have the headers turn UP and have a pre Cat blocking the escape path ensuring that any foreign object is always trying to get back in the combustion chamber via exhaust valve. Great idea.

2. Aftermarket stainless 200 cell cats. Most likely Nouvalari 200 cell cats ( currently a group buy special for FChatters [http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321210] ), Maybe even a test pipe instead, allowing any foreign object to become a projectile hitting the black carbon "look" hood of the Ricer that has been tailgating me for 7 miles revving their 1.6L engine and taking cell phone pictures.

3. Aftermarket exhaust with vacuum valve. Not many options here, and I am not sold on the capristo sound. Before you flame me, we all have different tastes, hey I like Lil Wayne, so there!

4. Aftermarket exhaust brackets with springs, rubber, Opiate, or other stress mitigator. This is last on my list, but non the less important.

 

Is this proven? How many miles? What drive conditions? I don't doubt it, but I simply have not seen multiple F430's with any single aftermarket variant all chime in with 15,000+ (or whatever) miles.

 

Yes, this has been on my mind for some time. Just how many million accumulated miles are there on F430s with standard headers as against the population of altered cars?

 

Good question; I do not have any empirical evidence that aftermarket headers could not possibly cause catastrophic engine failure. My opinion, and it is JUST an opinion, is based on theory alone. The theory is based on several facts, then some hypothesis.

Fact:
1. Foreign metallic objects were found in the combustion chamber of >1 F430.
2. In the same vehicle pieces of the header welds were broken off and missing.
3. The missing pieces were not found in the header and could not have escaped downstream because the pre-cat in the header would not allow pieces that large to pass through them.
4. OEM headers have been reported on many instances of having several types of failures, one of which is the weld. This led to Ferrari issuing a Technical Bulletin and replacing said headers for free.
5. Aftermarket headers do not have pre-cats. Because of this fact, any foreign object that exists in the header will likely end up in the main Catalytic converter which is quite a bit further downstream than the pre-cats.

Hypothesis:
1. The missing header welds ended up in the combustion chamber and caused or were related to the engine failure.
2. OEM headers are lower in quality than aftermarket headers.
3. Because aftermarket headers do not have pre-cats, they would not trap foreign objects in a short piece of header.
4. Any foreign object trapped by the OEM headers would be more likely to enter the combustion chamber. The section they would be trapped is angled where gravity would pull the object toward the exhaust valves making exhaust gas reversion pulling them into the combustion chamber more likely.

Risk Vs Reward:
< Stick with OEM Header >
Risk: Catastrophic engine failure, Expensive repair, being without your vehicle for 30+ days
Reward: You dont have to do anything! No up front cost.

< Change to Aftermarket Header >
Risk: Spend $3-6K USD in vain. All F430 OEM headers wont fail.
Reward: Save yourself from hassle of unexpected header and/or engine failure. Pick up a few additional HP, slightly louder engine (maybe a negative for some)

 

Having read the whole discussion, firstly I would like to congratulate member Trend, for a very thorough and informative explanation.
Thanks.

My feelings are the same as your self and I will also be going for an aftermarket header and 200cell cats and brackets.
I won't be interested in mufflers because I live in a rather "sensitive neighbourhood" and since I leave home at 6.00am, I need to keep the noise as civilised as possible.

My dilemma now, is: should we go Fabspeed all the way, but I also like the heat shield solution that Capristo have for their headers, ( have you seen their impressive video on their website)?
It is crucial that the heat shields are fitted in my opinion, but I am not sure if they fit the Fabspeed headers or if we have to stick with Capristo ones.

 

Thanks Trent for resuming many topics we have been debating, discussing and analysing here.

Regarding Capristo and the quality of their headers, if they would fail, this company would be immediately in big troubles. Such company would not have a second chance. So believe me, they must be very sure of the quality of their products. Although, when Ferrari's headers are failing, Ferrari keeps on doing well and nobody cares there too much. I broke an engine on my previous 355 due to headers failure. It has been a hell of a problem.

Last thing: I woulnd't consider new Capristo header without the heat shields. Keep the heat where it has to be and leave the rest of the engine parts as cool as possible

 

White dust origin: the dust comes from the insulation compounds used in the exhaust headers. The exhaust pipes are surrounded with lots of insulation compounds to reduce the heat. It avoids also any contact between the pipes which would at very high temps, make them melting together. Pipes and insulation are hold together with a metallic cover (the cover is only part you can really see).

When one of these exhaust pipes has a crack and starts to leak, the exhaust going through this crack is under high pressure and is blowing out the insulation compounds of the headers. That's the dust that appears all around the engine bay and can be seen most of all on the rear window.

Another typical sign is the smell of exhaust gas in the engine bay. When you smell uncatalyzed exhaust gases,, especially at cold startup, you can be sure of having a leak in the exhaust headers. Such smell is very typical and remembers the exhaust gases smell of the pre-80’s cars
Stef

 

It depends on the local laws applied in each country but I would say, generaly speaking, yes, it would void the warranty if you had an issue which would be related to the aftermarket part.

 

Okay, Query the hive mind; I have zero desire to chase better sound or more power through upgrades to my 430. What I do want is to be able to rest easy. Can we smply replace the exhaust manifolds with headers and NOT get CEL, and NOT have to flash the ECU's? I don't want to do ANYTHING else, just solve this one problem. Can I just blow out the original manifold precat material WITHOUT getting a CEL??? What's the BARE MINIMUM I can get away with to be able to stop worrying about catastrophic engine failure?

 

Technically the warranty wouldnt be applied to the aftermarket headers, or if they were to cause something to fail (unlikely).

I know guys that installed them and didnt have a CEL issue. You CAN remove the catalyst material yourself, but if 100% is not removed, you could have particles end up in the muffler or into a cylinder/cylinders.

 

Installed "them" as in a set of aftermarket headers? If one set of aftermarket headers won't throw a CEL, does it stand to reason that none of them would?

 

Yes, headers. It could be pure luck that 3 people I know have headers with no CEL, but I doubt it.

 

Thanks.

 

So how's the Agency Power header solution? Anyone with any experience?

 

Using an O2 spacer you can avoid CEL's easily though

 

I just read a couple of threads that indicated Agency Power had some issues, and they recommended not getting them. Do a search for the name and the threads will pop up. I just did the full header/cat/exhaust setup from Fabspeed, there have been zero issues that I am aware of with the workmanship.