In the words of Lew-Ham, "Quote"

Alonso beat Hamilton in 3 out of the first 5 races, including the first 2.

 

I'm not saying he should have driven slower ... banging head on my desk, he should have remained a team player instead of getting too big for his boots and CAUSING the upset in McLaren. Prost never told his team to fnck off. Lewis did.

Nothing to do with performance, but simply knowing his place. Sigh, do you get it now?
Pete

 

bloody hard work, isn't it?

 

Both of them, and wider team in general, are to blame. The whole situation escalated way out of control for a multitude of reasons. No point trying to pin this on one individual. No body knew that Hamilton was going to be as fast as he was in his first year - he exceeded all expectations including those of his team management and team mate. That scenario has caused friction in every F1 team since the beginning of time. F1 drivers are extreme Stigs - they run one program, and that is to go as fast as possible and seek out every ounce of advantage on track and within the team. Remember - Hamilton had been part of the McLaren family for nearly a decade before joining the F1 team. If anything, he was better connected into that organization than Alonso would ever be. That was clearly a factor in all of this.

 

What was "his place"??? That is the root of our disagreement Pete. You think he should have not challenged Alonso. But that's crazy. Any F1 drivers job is to do the best they can - i.e. be the fastest and win the most.

You believe that Alonso somehow earned the right not to be challenged by his teammate, and that's just ridiculous to me, especially when the rookie is a guy like Hamilton. I also don't think Vettel should do it for Webber, or Massa should for Schumacher, or Rosberg should for Schumacher, or anyone should for anyone else.

You created a very narrow set of qualifications for your belief - rookie driver in fast car against WDC-winning teammate, that just so happens to only apply to Hamilton. People create such narrow criteria when they are trying to justify the unjustifiable. You're just trying to rationalize something that we both know is absurd - that Hamilton should have somehow let Alonso win.

Like I said, your Prost example is a good one. He came into F1 and from his very first race beat his teammate consistently. That's what good drivers do - drive to win. F1 lifespans are too short to do anything else.

 

Creating sets of circumstances to justify the unjustifiable *is* hard work.

A driver should STFU and let his teammate win:

-if his teammate is a 2xWDC winner (but not a 1xWDC winner or just a much more experienced driver)
-if said driver is a rookie in F1, but not if he is a rookie in a new team
-and it's OK to outperform your teammate if you are a rookie in F1, so long as you don't get angry at your team, or if your last name is Prost.

Err, yeah, very reasoned argument there.

Better to just be a bit more intellectually honest about it and say "I like Alonso and I don't like him getting challenged, so I am putting reason aside and saying Hamilton shouldn't have done it".

...as if the minds here don't see that's what it's about anyway

 

What's he supposed to say..."This is a driver's track where the driver makes a difference, and with as hard as I blow, I might as well stay home????"

Mark

 

well, it cost all of them the championship...so I'll be they're all thrilled with the outcome and your/their logic.

 

Don't feed the troll.........

 

All I'm trying to say is he should have been a team player, whether he was winning all races or not. He did not need to not play the McLaren team rules and ruin Alonso's chance at a good qualifying lap. [Mike, note I'm talking about a QUALIFYING lap not even a race]

Also no matter how fast you are, you should never tell the man that has paid for your racing since you were 12 (or something) to fnck off. That is just not respectful.

Lewis cost Ron Dennis his job, and cost McLaren the 2007 WDC (scandle withstanding).

I mean nothing else nothing more.

MS, Prost, Lauda, Stewart, Moss, etc. never told their team boss to fnck off after a few races in THEIR car, never ... even after many years in F1.

If you believe that ANYBODY has the right to tell their racing team, the team that is putting in all the hard work to design, build and maintain your race car, to fnck off at any time, then well I'm sorry but something is wrong with your upbringing. If I was Ron, I would have immediately taken him out of the seat, and made him miss a couple of races to show who the boss really is. The team is not Hamilton Racing, it is McLaren Racing.

Yes I would have lost WCC and WDC points, but I would have ensured the team stayed bonded and worked as a TEAM. Net gain would have been more than the points lost. Instead the team blew up out of control, something that has never happened in McLaren before, even in the Senna versus Prost days the team stayed completely professional.
Pete
ps: All that aside, if I was running a team I would have a firm number 1 ... but that does not mean the other driver cannot beat the number 1 like Ferrari do, it means that driver gets the new bits and has the senior position in the team. While it is great racing (sometimes) having your team mates fight on the track is not good team playing, but by all means if the number 2 just happens to like a certain track and simply blows the number 1 away, all good and well done. When it comes to any part of a race weekend everybody in the team has to work together to get the best possible results for both drivers, and that includes helping each other during qualifying. A common practice in two car teams.

 

Who exactly fired Ron?

 

Don't know but he lost the role as team principle.

Pete

 

I'm speechless......

Cheers,
Ian

 

Lost? Hadn't he expressed an intention to change roles previously? As I remember he was focusing on the road car roll out.

 

Okay he stepped aside ... same thing

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article5531559.ece

Note this comment from the article above: "with Hamilton, Dennis's personal protege" ... and this guy who he helped so much told him to "go swivel" and single handedly destabilised his team. Just wonderful ...
Pete

 

Not at all. I'm not saying that the debacle didn't taint his exit but it may not have caused it.
Ian I'm not sure how to read your comment.

 

Well, he´s the owner of the team, so I seriously doubt that anyone was in position to force him out.

 

Yes well that is what he says, but you can't lead a team with all the team members smirking behind your back on how you can't even control your drivers anymore. Guess he's too close to LH, and sees him like a son. Otherwise I cannot understand the accepting of being spoken to like that.
Pete

 

At that time Mercedes had a huge share in the team ...
Pete

 

That bit of letting the number two win if he´s having a good day sounds lovely, but what would you do if the number 1 driver needed those points for the championship? Maybe you´re at the beginning of the season and both drivers are tied in points, but who knows, maybe the number one will need those points later.

I think that when you have a number one and a number two, the number two will always be a bit f*cked up. It´s impossible to be fair in that situation. Not that I disagre. I´d do the same thing if I was a team manager: it´s my team and my drivers, and if a driver doesn´t like the way it is, he can always quit and become the new Jack Brabham.

 

Since we're all speculating let me say that I don't see Ron Denis leaving because his employees might be smirking. He's headed McLaren long enough and with such great success that the team wouldn't write him off over one sad year.

 

Still, he was a major shareholder and the other important shareholder was that arab guy (the guy of the Tag watches, can´t remember his name) who I suppose after so many years is closer to Ron than to Mercedes-Benz AG.

Don´t know. Problaby Ron is getting old, and he got divorced and he was too tired to keep living like a circus artist.

 

exactly. i seriously doubt lewis is the only cocky f1 driver around...

 

If he survived to Nigel Mansell, he can cope with that.