Stooge Tin Pin Connector Kit

No need to apologize because one guy wants to pull the "pc" card.

 

Jayf - have you ever had prolonged exposure with mentally disabled kids and their parents? Well I have. And I can tell you if you did as well you wouldn't have such a pathetic attitude.

For the record, I actually agree with most here that Ernie went about this all wrong.

Unbelievable!

 

My son is PDF nos which is in the autism spectrum. I think it was in poor taste but I have been nasty at times on here so I take it move on.

R

 

BINGO! One of the MANY various features of Dave's kit that is addressed. It would take hours and many pages to address each individual part in the kit and it's relationship to the whole. Even the details of the crimper and pin removal tool, Dave spent many dollars and months sampling various makes and models to find not only the best operating, but easy to use. Way too much to go into here.....but as others have said, Dave spent hours upon hours with each of us "Beta testers" as we assisted with development of this kit. He supports each GCK sale in a similar way. When you understand the huge investment Dave made to get these kits assembled, and finally to market, along with the hours of tech support he offers with each sale, it is no wonder it will be a long, looooooong time before he reaches any return on his investment.

Dave makes a good point, there is nothing wrong with someone posting that you could redo all the pins with oem...of course you get an oem result and failures a few years down the road. But to openly attack Dave and his product is another thing completely....

 

You just posted quicker than I: Thanks for your comments.

It's one thing to have comedy at a person that can change/affect their situation and understand the comedy, but totatlly another when an innocent is left with only reminders of segregation at what is just poor taste.

Once again, this thread has shown some rather quick responses to short thinking: the internet is afterall, like I may have stated before, not trivial nor without impact even to the slightest post.

 

+1

I have a CNC machine shop at my work too, so if we're crapping on the cost of vendors products, someone post a pic of the brake booster shaft and I can tell you guys what a fair cost would be based on the material, tolerance, any heat-treat needed, machine time, etc.

That'll be fun, right?


Right? <crickets>

Nah, it wouldn't.

 

F them ernie.....start your own site, i will join.


Hes allowed me to save probably 5 to 10 thousand by doing it yourself.....

Hes probably the best brother....teaching people and explaining all for what????

TO SAVE HIM AND US MONEY!

I applaud him to continue.

Ernie--go for it; and thankyou for all your contributions throughout the years.

Mr Helms, If your product if worth every penny, Let your product speak for itself.

 

After comments like this I can't take it anymore. This thread is so incredibly toxic I have tried to stay away from it. I had hoped that moderators would have closed this thread as no one wins here.

Knowing both parties I hope to appear objective in this issue. I get nothing for plugging either person and I&#8217;m only going to speak about the really important topic to owners which is the gold kit vs. tin.

So lets say Ernie goes with tin pins like OEM with questionable armamentarium. What is the best thing that can happen? I think the best thing is that his 348 works as well as all the 348&#8217;s out there with tin pins from the factory. Wasn&#8217;t it Luca who said the 348 was the worst Ferrari ever built? Was electronics part of the reason for his critique? Do you guys just want the Ferrari status quo chasing down ghosts every time the check engine light comes on? Do you like breaking down on the side of the freeway or not being able to start your car at the restaurant? How many of you Ferrari owners have &#8220;triple A&#8221; plus for the extra miles of free towing? If that is your bag "tin" is for you.

What Dave Helms of SRI has done is &#8220;best&#8221; OEM, where quality is no object so that our Ferraris would run reliable. That&#8217;s it. That&#8217;s the plan. That&#8217;s the goal. As I have posted in other threads &#8220;gold&#8221; on the pins is not the whole system. It is just the obvious part you see and people improperly assign all the value of the kit to what they see. There is much proprietary engineering that a smart person could see if he bothers to look. I have said before and many others can attest the &#8220;gold kit&#8221; is the best money ever spent on my Ferrari&#8230;period!

Go back and read my thread

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=312756

And you will begin to understand that there is way more going on here than some tin pins and a crimper.

 

Well said FBB!

 

Certainly an interesting thread, thats for sure.

I commend Ernie for having a go. The man is ALWAYS having a go and trying to help a Brother out.

I didnt read much into the tin vs gold pin argument. Doesnt interest me at this point in time. I take it the tin pins will freshen up the electrical system in the 348 while Dave's gold pins will improve the electrical system in the 348.

I am still not 100% convinced Ernie really intended to hurt Dave or his business. Helping out members is what he does best. Should he have gone a different way about it, perhaps. I dont know.

It sounds like Dave's gold kit is worth it's weight in gold (hehe) and has proven results already. Ernie's stooge kit un-tested, but it's an alternative for those interested.

The beauty about guys like Ernie, Dave and the rest of the guys that help on this forum is they take the 'edge' off Ferrari ownership. Especially those who like to wrench themselves.

A lot of new owners are VERY intimidated about Ferrari ownership, I know I was. I joined the forum when my clutch started playing up. Within a day of starting my thread I had plenty of guys offering help and advice which really boosted my confidence owning such a car.

Having guys like this on this forum are a huge asset to this community and I am, like all of us...................proud to be a part of it.

And now to add some cheek from down under................................







































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FBB, PAP

It's great to see the moderate voices finally chime in. Most problems usually have complicated pathology, it's never black and white and this issue is extreme in complication.

Whether Ernie screwed up or not, like Pap says, he's contributed big time over the years and has always been a good guy. I'm betting he's thought a lot about whether it was a mistake or not over the last week. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater...

 

And for that suggestion, aimed at me or not,

I do apologize.

 

Glad you posted this. Not aimed at you at all. Just further evidence that we all can act in haste, especially easy on a web forum. I have some posts I would love to be able to bribe Rob to delete...

Good on you!

 

I am not a 348 owner.... but I am an engineer.

I think what can best be taken away here so far is that:

A) Ernie has found you a suitable replacement.

B) Dave has found you a tested, documented, UPGRADE - with positive feedback.

Each owner can decide for himself which best suits his needs and bank account.

Rick

 

Absolutely. The internet brings out the worst in people unfortunately.

I am both a fan of Ernie and Dave. Both do good work for this Ferrari community. Both are generous of their time, their knowledge and in Dave's case, his superior expertise in ALL things Ferrari.

Hopefully they stay just as active as they normally are as we all enjoy their contributions on this website.

I just found this on the internet.
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I disagree. Ernie CLEARLY attacked the validity of Dave Helms product, based on the gold to tin, versus tin to tin connection, and sited various data to support this claim. He did not post here that he had a disagreement with Dave, or was asking Dave for clarification...he is stating, that Dave is wrong, and that he, Ernie has a better, less expensive alternative.

If Ernie had presented his case a bit differently, I might not have been offended, but as it is, I am.

There is no question Ernie had contributed greatly to this forum and selflessly helped others...that is why it is also hard for me to be so blunt about this thread.

 

I should know better than to keep entering this thread but alas misinformation keeps popping up and owners keep asking me to make corrections with Facts.

Tin to Gold: EVERY (!) Major Auto Manufacturer does the same, using Gold connections (albeit fairly low quality) on Tin sensor pins for the particular sensor they deem most critical in the system. For Ferrari it was the TPS starting on the early 355's, for Porsche the MAF.... Put that argument to rest unless you know or have a larger data base of information than the combined knowledge of Bosch, Ferrari, Delphi, Porsche.... it was intentional on their part. Where they started cutting corners for cost savings and made mistakes based on current day knowledge at the time, I have designed a kit that corrects these problems long term where cost savings Did Not take a priority to longevity and performance.

Gold to Gold: With some of the statements made regarding pricing already.... how many would step up for sensors with Gold terminals? NONE! I already did a cost study years ago and needed not waste my time and ask any opinions of owners in that regard. Where it is possible due to entire housings being replaced on a given kit and suitable quality Gold connectors are available that meet the load requirements, they are already Gold to Gold by design of our kits.

The very basis of this thread by Ernie was how to Pirate and cluge/cheap out a known working system we have designed. What few know is the first 4 Ferrari's (two of the 4 are FChatters) this system of ours was tested on received highly UPGRADED replacement Tin Terminals. When the results of those installs paled in comparison to the later installs using our chosen Gold Terminals, they had to be re-upgraded to Gold terminals at no cost to the owners. Been there years ago and have data to support that was not the answer. There were inconsistent benefits and short term gains realized by this testing but they fell FAR short, were short lived and simply had no consistency. There are some that still think this is something we stumbled upon, this is the end product of many years of research and testing.

No Rick, "Suitable" suggests there is data to support the claim, there is anything but that and I have already proven it not the case years ago. If my data is not proof enough one needs only to look at what Ferrari gave us when the cars were new... that is what I fixed.

Hell, want to REALLY save money? Solder the wires directly to the sensor and be done with all removable connections, we even tested THAT albeit leading to the destruction of many pretty expensive components. Finding a "Suitable" substitute was never the intention, this was an attack on a tested and proven design. The question as to WHY... remains unanswered to this day.
Bubble Gum and Bailing wire fixes are meant to just get you home. When it is used as a repair procedure is there any question why the value, reliability and safety of these cars plummets? Folks supporting, designing and implementing poorly thought out Cluge repairs are directly to blame for this, you own that title and know who you are.

Pap, Your post of "The House"..... Delusional, simple as that, you have removed all doubt. As I stated earlier my best hope is my kids see a payback on this exercise, I will not and I am no where near done working on it yet. This will be an ongoing project for sometime to come and is only meant for those fed up with "Marginal". Before I started typing at 3:30 AM I had to check up on 6 new variations of this kit that are currently being tested worldwide. One must remember, where no benefits are realized by multiple testers, it never makes it as an option and the parts go to storage.

I, as most here, enjoyed my conversations with Ernie and was ready to help him with parts and data to build a race engine of his dreams for this car. I have on hand many spares for the IMSA 348 and felt Ernie's proposed project was a worth recipient. What I wanted him to do was first get the car running well and enjoy it, if only for a short time before tearing it back apart for the dream build. How these efforts led to this attack still, as stated, remains unanswered.

 

Lol, of course.

**Was following Ernie's Scarface theme. **

I also recall you saying hopefully your kids see the long term benefits of your efforts and I hope they do.

I know my kids will be the REAL winners when I am gone.

 

This thread was unfortunate for me. Both guys have contributed a lot to FChat and I enjoy their posts. I believe that if Ernie had simply made his post and chosen his words better, 5 pages of follow-up posts and counter-posts could've been avoided. A few months back, I posted a DIY on my experiences de-stickifying 348 interior parts. I didn't try to crap all over someone else's business by saying my method was superior, cheaper or whatever. I just laid it out there as an alternative for those who have a DIY bent. I think Ernie could've done the same.

One can argue whether Dave's pricing is expensive or not. To me, the guy is entitled to amortize all of the cost of prototypes and hours that he spent over the expected run of gold connector kits (or whatever products he offers), in addition to earning a markup on kits sold. That's just business folks, and I have no problem with anyone that provides a superior product and wants to earn a profit. So long as their products and customer service are great, they deserve to be compensated for it.

As far as Ernie is concerned, the guy has posted a lot of helpful threads on this board, and I hope he continues to do so.

Full disclosure, I haven't purchased a gold connector kit or anything else from SCI. I don't even know Dave or Ernie. Just thought that this thread was unfortunate. I don't want to see anyone pick up their ball and go home. Just keep contributing, keep the dialogue/debate courteous and let's get back to discussing what gives us all a rise . . . Ferraris.

 

Well, I was trying to take the high road and not let emotion play into this. People often get to the point where you "can't confuse them with the facts... their minds are made up!"

Fact is, Ernie's solution offers an adequate replacement pin. His pins fit the connector and the tool will crimp them on the wires. The pins will make electrical contact thus making the system work. There doesn't appear to be any documented gain or real world feedback. As an electro-mechanical development engineer that's all I can say. What is not being said speaks volumes but you need to be of a certain "ilk" to ascertain or understand that.

Fact is, Dave's product was well researched at considerable expense of both personal time and money. Dave's product had extensive testing. Dave's product delivers upgraded, demonstrated results. Dave's product has had real-world installs by real world amateurs and still has positive feedback. I don't think I can say anything more/better about that (hint, that also speaks volumes).

Emotion - I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't KNOW what anyone's intent was. If anything pi$$es me off it's people thinking they know what I'm thinking. HELL, even when I write stuff, some folks don't get the intent. So I won't go down that lane, I leave that for others to venture into to.

I consider Dave a friend. I respect his input and occasionally he has even asked for mine. I KNOW that if you have his SRI products you have the best you can get at this time! Some folks don't value quality and you have to respect that. It doesn't make the quality product any less valuable to the rest of us.

Rick

 

I totally disagree.. What Ernie is doing is giving us fellow fchat members false hope in that they can do the change over on the cheap.. Many things are being left out and once you start doing this the Ernie way you will find yourself in a jamb. for ex.

In order to extract the terminal on sensors you need to destroy the rubber boot that protects it because it has been damaged from heat and in some models Ferrari used some type of adhesive to keep it in place. Dave's kit includes new boots.

Putting rubber boots in place is not a easy job considering that the end of the boot needs to stretch over the wire harness and the boot is very firm and a much smaller diameter so when it slips over the harness its tight and sealed.. Dave developed tools (with patents) to address the boot installation (from experience they work).. He had to develope, design, fabricate, test, and set into production.. Dave kit includes set of these boot tools (different sizes for different rubber boots).

Ecu plugs is next.. I can tell you from experience that terminal extraction on these plugs is very very difficult and will lead to damaging the bridge and plug. Dave supplies new bridges and plugs to complete this task. Keep in mind you have to buy a large quantity of these plugs.. Dave did so.. Ernie fans will find themselves in a pickle when doing the ecu changeover.. When they break the bridge and plug they will be f*cked.. Its also nice to snip, crimp, and plug.. Having the old plug with the old wires and terminals still in place gives you a solid cross reference in case you mess things up.. Not every plug hole is filled in the ecu plugs.. they are some blanks and all its takes is one screw up and it will lead to a cluster-f*ck. Daves solution really reduces the possibility of any errors.

All two terminal and three terminal plugs are also included for same reason as above.. The extraction is ok on these plugs but having the old plug with wires still in place gives a very nice cross reference and it cleans up the plug nicely with a new inner seal as well. These plugs are also sold in large amounts.. Dave has them..

All tools needed to do the install are included - soup to nuts.

I can go on and on.. Daves kit is the sure and proper to way to make this improvement with our F cars.. This kit can be installed with confidence and most importantly with proven results.. Its a homerun... with bases loaded !! Ernies stooge kit is not a adequate alternative.. Its nothing.. terminals crimper and those tools dont even equate to 1/4 of the equation.

R

 

No... actually you completely agree. This is part and parcel to my statements about not saying anymore, can't say anything better...

But I'm an engineer. And I'm used to being too succinct... and misunderstood.

Remember that part about "speaking volumes"??? you just did it for me.

Rick

 

Sorry I am a spazz..

R

 

You are correct in every way however that is for Ernie's devotees to figure out. So goes doing things the cheap way. There are always 2 ways to do everything, Dave represents one and Ernie the other.

Ernie's error was not in discussing alternatives, it was his standard attack mode that was wrong and his SOP of attacking and denigrating anyone who chooses his hobby to persue as a business or anyone in a service industry for that matter.

 

I look at this from a strict economic view since I don't know any of the parties involved. Dave has designed and built a kit that, most people who have purchased, seem to like very much. It appears that Dave has spent a considerable time on R&D already and it sounds like it continues to this day. There is also the custom fabrication of tools and last, the components of the kit.

So lets say that all of the parts cost $100, yet the kit sells for $1,000. It's easy to say, "wow, that's a bunch of money for a few parts." But when R&D is factored in along with all of the tooling, labor and other expenses, $1,000 is probably pretty fair.

The piece I look at is demand. This kit only works on a cars that aren't made in high quantities. This doesn't go to all Chevy trucks from 1975-2001. There is a very limited market that Dave is designing and building for. If he told me that he barely breaks even (or even loses money) on each kit, I'd believe him.

Is this something that one can DIY? Sure, anything is. I'd bet the farm that by the time someone came up with a solution that equaled or exceeded Dave's kit, more than $1,000 would have been spent in parts, tools and time.

I hope everyone can reconcile and move on. I really enjoy this board and I hate to see good people pushed away. It's like Gresham's law, but with people instead of money.