458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

That's why you keep ignoring to my posts. Anyway, the comment about annoying was clearly tongue-in-cheek. There was even a helpful graphical indicator

 

I had no idea the California could keep up with the McLaren. Whoever knew?

 

Reading and commenting on posts are mutually exclusive from becoming annoyed.

 

I think it all ends up mattering to the individual's opinions. I love the Italia, but only like the McLaren. Would I buy one if I could? Absolutely, but only after I already had an Italia and a Scuderia. For me, driving a Ferrari is more than just numbers. I don't really know how to describe it, but there is so much more to it. However, I have never driven a McLaren so I can't comment on that.

 

Why not? It isn't stopping anyone else.

 

People, Have a question on this one !



Is bernie ecclestone an investor in McLaren MP4 ??????

 

You make a valid point.

 

Personally, I consider the 458 the entry level ferrari

Cars like the california and FF/612/456/ line ups are more specialized to suit specific niches of ferrari buyers. California for those who want a nice top down GT car (although ferrari themselves said they designed the california for the female ferrari market) and the 2+2 for those who want...well 4 seats

 

Tsk, tsk, tsk. You have not been reading what I said, but to address your points in turn:

Weight: The autocar quoted weight is from official press release. Here's a better comparison:
Ferrari claims dry weight of 3042 lbs with lightweight components:

http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sport%20Cars/CurrentRange/458-Italia/Performance_Figures/Pages/Technical_Sheet_458-Italia.aspx

Here's an independent measurement (R&T always weighs cars itself, no mfrs claims allowed) of curb weight with lightweight options: 3490 lbs

http://www.roadandtrack.com/var/ezflow_site/storage_RT_NEW/storage/original/application/5928dfc15d6ac83f27af9013afadd860.pdf

Somehow, somewhere, Italia gained 450 lbs of fluids. Simply impossible.

Speed: 0-60 speed differences are not that relevant. However, a difference of 1.4 (or 1.6) sec from 0-124 is a big difference in performance. It's roughly the difference between Italia and F430. For an illustration what that looks like I advise you to check out the drag race between the two in Top Gear review of Italia:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgKjp1pq7iI[/ame]

Notice how micro the difference is.

Italia is not CLOSE in performance to McLaren. By objective measures, Italia is very fast and capable, but so is f430 or even 360. It's relative performance that makes Italia slow.

Faster is not better. Agreed. As i mentioned earlier, you weigh many things when you choose a car like that. However, the large gulf in performance does matter.

 

Krzys you claim that you enjoy this community yet it's been a month since you have posted anything, until of course your precious Mclaren has been proven to be less desirable. You can't change opinions by trolling.

Now, you claim Ferrari are liars with their tests, weights, etc. yet it seems the MP4 doesn't live up to it's claims either. You quoted a US spec 458 to be heavier than the claim Ferrari makes, that is nothing new, US spec cars are always heavier. Can you imagine how heavy the Mclaren will be in US spec? Yeah, pretty similar, if not heavier than the 458. I guess you should feel cheated by Mclaren who have obviously lied about their car.

I will not argue the speed of the Mclaren, everyone knows it will be faster. It very well should be after it's release was delayed a year after the Italia came out!

You cannot claim that Ferrari have been lazy with the design of the 458 or that they purposefully chose aluminum for marketing BS because it has already seen much success and even greter potential on the racing circuit in many different series. As of now the MP4 has nothing, I'm sure it will be a great competitor but as I said it has zip, only what has been put on paper.

With that being said there have been numerous people that have said they hope you enjoy your Mclaren but it just isn't for them. You have done nothing but attack 458 owners and try to imply that they are morons for buying into some sort of fraud. If that is not the epitome of trolling then I don't know what is. Time and time again your posts have been proved irrelevant or false by numerous people. Will you let it be, more people see the 458 as the better car, that you cannot argue.

Because you like numbers games so much I'll add that the 458 w/HELE system has lower CO2 emissions than the MP4. Also, the 458 won the Michelin Green X Challenge for GTE in Le Mans this year. Doesn't exactly sound like laziness when a manufacturer can retain a normally aspirated engine (which people like for reasons that you and others have pointed out) that keeps the identity of what is Ferrari while increasing power to awesome levels (126hp/L) all the while making it greener and improving mpg. Laziness does not apply. Also, the carbon vs. Al debate is not limited to cars, it's also in the aerospace industry. This claim is also rendered false, many industries still see the usefulness and strength of Al.

I will say it yet again, enjoy your Mclaren. I'm sure it will be fantastic for you and you will have a wonderful time with it. Please stop badgering the Ferrari community with your false arguments and faux morality complex. Your opinion is yours, it will differ from others, I hope you understand that now.

 

A single post that has the ablility to prove the many arguments of another irrelevant. Great post Onno

 

To be factually correct it is the mid point in Mclaren's proposed range as they intend to launch an entry level model to compete with the 911.

It's no great surprise that the Mclaren is faster than the 458 as they are effectively relaunching their brand as a road car business and need headline grabbing figures to gain attention. Lets not forget that Ron chose to try and steal Ferrari's thunder by releasing photo's and details of the MP4-12C on the very day Ferrari were launching the 458 at the world Premiere event in Maranello. There is fierce rivallry here.

Mclaren then waited a further 18 months to launch their car which included nearly a year of comparison testing against the Italian car. A year is a long, long time to come up with a revised package for an F1 constructor. This additional time has allowed them to engineer out more weight, revise their electronic systems, modify the power output of the engine, carry out more reliability testing, set up a dealer network etc etc. It would have been more shocking had they launched a slower car I'd suggest

At this end of the market it's not hard to raise the stakes when your competitor has shown their hand. In any case both manufacturers will have modifications up their sleeves to further improve performance of each car. Does that mean that for the 6 or 7 month spell when Ferrari dominate with the 458 Sud before Mclaren respond with their lightweight variant that you will ditch your 12C and have the 458 Scud so you can regain your rightful position at the head of the grid on a trackday??

 

I just bought and read the Autocar review, which is much more balanced than the headline "Ferrari beats Mclaren" would suggest. They say a great many positive things about the Mclaren although they point out that, like any car, there are faults including some "bugs" (as you would expect from a new model). Overall it sounds like a fantastic achievement and I'm looking forward to seeing one in the flesh. As a car lover it is great to see a company make something like this.

Personally I am very happy with my 458 and, had I gone for a Mclaren, I would still be waiting some time yet before I would see a car. The nearest dealer is a 3 hour drive away and it didn't exist when I ordered my car.

 

What? Why do we need independent tests or lap times or anything else, we already know the McLaren is faster. Why are you so desperate for validation? You sound incredibly needy.

 

Krys seems to think that Ferrari somehow took the easy and cheaper way out in not giving the 458 a carbon tub. I suggest that it is Mclaren that took the easy way out in not keeping the MP4 normally aspirated an approach I for one favor.

 

I am needy b/c I prefer independent verification of mfr.'s claims? A bizarre comment.

 

Actually, I agree on that one. It's clearly a shortcut on mclaren's part. I would much prefer a na engine.

 

Or developing and making the engine OR the CF tub themselves.

 

I will. Promise.

I guess you also think then that 430 is not slow compared to Italia and the difference in the top gear drag race is a micro one.

 

I can see where we are headed. Another 60 page thread of the same arguments we made months ago.

Let's just be clear so we can stay away from the boring and usual:

1) Most Fchatters LIKE the Mac and respect it's technology and performance

2) Most Fchatters think that the Mac's introduction will force Ferrari to raise it's game. Competition is good for the breed.

3) Most Fchatters think the Mac isn't as good looking or exciting as it should be. I would think most Lambo owners would say the same and maybe even more so.

4) Most Fchatter's don't believe that what a car can do on a high speed track has anything to do with their selection process. That goes for technology too.


Now, we can move on...

 

So what every independent test so far tells us counts for nothing, then?

 

There is one 0-60 and 0-100 test. Nothing on the claimed difference for 0-124 nor any lap times.