458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

What the heck is IRIS anyway?

 

Navigation

 

Why not just call it Navigation like the rest of the world?


It's like the French can't use any word that's in English. Everyone in the world says "computer" but the French have to call it an "Ordinataire".

I was trying to figure out if by having it "deactivated" that made any difference to their lap times. I don't see how.

But then, maybe they were running a porn DVD on the screen... Those Ferrari guys will do anything!

 

Does anybody have the acceleration numbers from that article?

 

It's more than just navigation: hard drive, wifi, better sound.

 

I am a big fan of scissor doors but the MP4 has the "worst of all worlds" scissor doors. I really don't know WTF they were thinking. Probably "scissor doors are cool" and that's it.

Scissor doors are nice because you can have a long door and don't have to worry about hitting a wall or car if you park next to it. But not the MP4-12C doors. The doors don't open vertically, they open way "out". So, if you are parked close next to another car or another car parks close next to you, you're screwed. You're also screwed if you park close to a wall, a garage post, etc. How close? Take a look at this picture.



Now, you might think "but the new Aventador also has doors that open out" (murci, diablo, etc. doors opened purely vertically).

Yeah, that is not exactly a problem with the Aventador. Look at this pic:



How about the SLS AMG? Again, not a problem:



And here's the McLaren SLR:



And want to see the problem I'm talking about? This is what happens when you have a McLaren SLR and you get stuck parking close to someone else.



Good luck with the MP4 after looking how the door on it opens.

When I had a Ford GT, I had to do the "Ford GT crawl" a couple times to get out (long doors with overhang, not vertical) where you kind of open the door and scoot out and under if you end up too close to something. But with the MP4 doors, you can't even do that because you'd need to nearly crawl under the door if another car parks close next to you. And you are going to hit your head on it like the Ford GT. You get used to it but it is kind of annoying for passengers.

The really ridiculous feature is the lack of a door handle so you don't know where the F to put your hand. You slide your (greasy) fingers on and around the door for a while until you find it and a sensor detects your (dirty) hand on the door (under the bend area for lack of a better term). Then how do you lift it? The door opens itself but to push it faster (and I'm guessing you'll have to push it when it gets cold, that causes lift supports to lose their lift.. or when the lift support gets old), you take your hand and shove the door up, on the door. Again, no handle to pull or anything so your hand is on the side of the door itself.

It is only an electric open. I asked the guy what happened if the battery died if you left the lights on or something. How would you open the door? The answer I got was "that can't happen" because the battery disconnects at a certain point if it is drained too much.

You know, you don't need any amps to be pulled to kill a battery. Time will do it, they discharge without anything hooked up. Two months or so just sitting there doing nothing will kill a car battery.

For reference, the McLaren SLR had a thing you pushed that wasn't on the door itself, you pushed it in.. here's a video

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdLy1Gbpwls[/ame]

Here's the MP4-12c, skip to about 1:10:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLaVS2IS69w[/ame]

Notice how the guy did that. He really pressed hard to make sure the sensor picked up his hand. Then he pulled it up by lifting a little as well. The guy did a pretty good job finding the spot. First time, you have to rub you hands around the car to find it.

Put a damn door handle on the car so nobody needs to slide their hand around hoping to unlock it and either fix the doors so they open in some kind of reasonable way or just have normal doors. I have never hit my head on my lambo door, never had a passenger hit their and and never had a problem getting in/out with it.

It is really annoying this car came from McLaren. They had so much opportunity to make something great. I won't even start with the "360 front end" the thing has.

I was so psyched about the "new F1" but after talking with "those who shall not be named", I ended up totally let down. From what I've heard, and it may be totally wrong, of course since the car hasn't been shown and what do I know , but it doesn't seem like this will be the "new F1" in any way, shape or form. It will just be a different car.

So much promise... I hope they really do make something that could be qualified as a "new F1". I still hold out hope. The MP4-12C will be decent tuner car and the GT version actually looks good (but isn't for the street).

But priced the same, it's 458 any day.

 

The 360's front end looks like the front end of the McLaren F1 anyway, so it's come full circle.

It's not the new F1, nor was it ever intended to be the new F1. It was meant to herald the return of McLaren as an independent manufacturer of road cars, after the divorce from Mercedes. This is a 458/Gallardo/GT2 RS competitor, the F1 successor will come within the next couple of years

And re: the scissor doors -- the engineers chose them because they are supposedly lighter than conventional doors. No idea if that's true or not, but that was the official PR response.

 

You sound like one of those 14 year olds who comment on guitar threads on YouTube who think the best guitarist is the one who can squeeze the most notes into a bar. Meanwhile, the grown-ups got over that a long time ago and are simply listening for music.

+1.

 

I'm wondering if this is something that happens with sterile cars that impress with numbers but offer but offer little depth otherwise. There seems to be a similar pattern with the rice rockets that punch above their weight: When first tested in isolation everyone proclaims them as giant killers that teach the established benchmarks a thing or two for a fraction of the price. Then a few months later they turn up in the group test and never manage much more than a middle rank placing, a result at odds with initial impressions. It never seems to add up.

 

Was thinking exactly the same as you.

 

The exchange on this thread between Bdelp and Krzys is hilarious.

 

I know, I know:
Lap times and performance do not matter
Weight in sports cars does not matter
Aluminum and carbon are basically the same
And everybody here upgraded from 430 to Italia for the feelsome driving experience.
Plus Ferrari cheats on comparison tests out of habit and not to make their customers feel about themselves.

I know, what was I thinking?

 

No-one said any of this doesn't matter. But your rather shallow criterion for what makes a good supercar is surprising for someone who has steered a course through life that allows him to purchase an asset beyond the reach of most. I've always imagined those of us in this position would have amassed a little more perspective along the way. You really will cancel over marginal differences in lap times? Utterly bizarre. Not to mention a little sad.

 

Since you seem to love F-Chat so much, why not pay $15 for a silver subscription? I personally don't mind your posts, and don't think your a Troll, god knows that Putz ScuderiaP1 is a lot worse than you. But if your going to use the facilities and can afford to buy a Mac, man up on the $15.

 

Could you please go to cry in the McLaren Forum instead to torment us with this stupid argumentation ?
Thanks, I will appreciate it.

 

I certainly do not feel that "lap times don't matter".

Someone in this debate keeps heralding lap times as the end-all, be-all experience of a road car. Someone keeps suggesting that lap times are the ONLY metric that matters for a road car. FURTHERMORE, someone keeps suggesting that the ONLY high-performance machine is the one with the best lap time, while all the others are mere, also-ran toys. That's a pretty juvenile, myoptic, extremist, black-and-white view.

Others have suggested that the entire experience of a road car simply can't be summed-up in a single number. Alas, this statement will be endlessly confusing to someone who holds lap times as the only single metric that matters. And in that black-and-white world view, someone will naturally conclude that the opposition believes lap times don't matter at all.

It's just NOT this simple : "Either lap times mean EVERYTHING, or lap times mean NOTHING". The world of road cars, thankfully, is much more complex. I suggest that you will be very disappointed if you search for that single number, to tell you where to spend your cash.

Anyway ... nice to see that the 458 is faster around the track, in addition to being a better overall driving experience

 

Well, you should have read what I said. Lap times are not the only criterion at ll, but they do matter. They matter all the more here as MCLaren made a big play over "the best handling car in the world" (Ron's words). So it goes to the car speed experience (so to speak), and to the sense of integrity of the mfr. One test does not make the story, but it's not a good sign.

 

If it bothers you, don't read it. It is as much your forum as mine.

Actually, wait, a guy with 39 posts wants to give me advice? Sorry, go back where you came from.

 

Again, not reading what i said. I explained many times that it is a combination. But lap times do matter, especially in comparison to a car that does not offer a great driving feel. The scud was a great feelsome drive, but too harsh for a DD. Italia in comparison feels dead, even though its sound is the best. Actually if you read all the recent reviews you will see that that's pretty much the only part, which makes the Italia experience.

 

There is no 458 rolling out of a US dealership that is coming close to that EVO time, nor remotely close to that 1469kg weight. McLaren was hyping up the car for awhile and Ferrari got scared and brought out a total blatantly juiced up 458. This just proves Harris was right. Ive seen US 458's barely pull on 530hp 3600lb Turbo S's.

 

You certainly HAVE written that 458 supporters believe that "lap times don't matter" ... shall i quote it for you? Multiple times in this very thread?

The point is this : the entire driving experience of a road car is MUCH more complex than that simple metric you're desperately searching for. This is NOT identical to suggesting that "lap times don't matter", as you have written, when summarizing the opposition's argument.

 

Actually, some people made exactly that point (that lap times and performance are irelevant). I am not saying everyone here does. Plus, I also wrote repeatedly that other things matter, too.

 

You asked me for proof that Mac isn't making its own engines... and I did that (thank you for not acknowledging it BTW).

Now, it's your turn. Show us that Evo and Ferrari are INTENTIONALLY lying to all of their readers because, if it were that easy to see this weight issue, surely the gents at Evo would be the first to see it.

In short:

Put up or shut up on the cheating issue. Or, be a man and quit calling "a rat".

 

This statement above is correct.

This altered statement above may sound familiar to most that read this forum

Your welcome

 

krzys, what's frustrating to me (and perhaps others) is that your view of high-performance road cars is both simplistic, and extremist.

YES, lap times matter. But NO, they are not the only metric that matters. For many drivers of high-performance road cars, who are true automotive enthusiasts, lap times may not even be the most important metric. But that doesn't mean that lap times don't matter at all ...

There's a vast array of "metrics" in measuring the performance of road cars. Some are technical, and easily measured. Others are more emotional, and harder to assign a number. And the relative importance of all these measures may very well vary, from driver-to-driver. Do you REALLY get this?

So far the press has been quite consistent, it seems, even in the UK ... all things considered, the 458 is a more satisfying high-performance road car than the new McLaren.

And it happens to be faster around the track, too ...