458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

Here's what I don't understand in all these posts.

Either you accept this particular test as valid (on this day or any other caveat you want)

OR

Evo and everyone in the press is in the bag for Ferrari. Everyone in the press knows what is going on and is either on the take, too stupid to know they are being taken, or scared to death of Ferrari to not write an honest article or not even bother to mention that they are suspicious of the results -- EVEN THOUGH they have already raised this issue in the past without any apparent penalty from Ferrari (aka -- they still let them test and have not blackballed Harris).


So, it's either the guys at Evo and Ferrari are telling the truth or

Ferrari, Evo, and every other reviewer are SCUM.

There is no third alternative here.


Sounds like a pretty pitiful accusation is you ask me.

 

absolutely ... that's what it all boils down to.

Which is what led to my question many posts ago :

What "unbiased" authority will the pro-McLaren group accept, in ANY comparisons vs. the 458?

We know EVO is out. Who's in? And why?

 

He did explain it. As Harris said, Ferrari shows up with a straight line car and a track car. In this test they were only able to bring one car, so they brought the track ringer. That's why it lost in the straight line tests. The point is that Ferrari simply doesn't care at all about its customers, it knows they are gullible and blind. But the primary reason they are able to get away with it is that the brand has very high sell power. It is extremely recognizable and desired by the usually misinformed masses. Even if Ferrari's performed poorly, people will still line up for them just for the bling/brand showoff factor, the same as a rolex watch. The companies biggest business accomplishment is the brand power they have created. Enzo Ferrari himself despised his customers. So why would the company not retain that aspect? They came out and said their clients do not care what the numbers say as they will still want to own the "dream".

 

Truly. If I believed that Evo knowingly cooked the books for Ferrari, I'd cancel my subsciption tomorrow. I think a lot of people would. What's the point? If I want Ferrari glowing praise, I just have to go to Ferrari.com.

This "thing" the Harris brought up works BOTH ways. If they know Ferrari is cheating and let it slide NOW that they've already reported it, they are just as much a cheater as anyone. If they cheat, then they should also be punished.

So, OK Mac guys... Let's see that write in campaign that Evo is cheating and liars for Ferrari.

 

Please excuse me but what utter baloney. Seriously, you should be embarrassed by this post. Are you 12 years old? No, I'm serious here. Have you ever bought a Ferrari? Ferrari doesn't care about me... and that's why I'm buying number 5. Yah... I'm stupid. I like being treated like an idiot and still coming back for more.

What an idiotic post. I -- and everyone on Fchat -- are blind and naive. Thanks for the praise. I didn't know you hated us so much. How can you even bother to be associated with such low lifes?

Enzo despised his customers? What does that have to do with 2011?

You want to call Evo liars... go ahead.

Personally, I'd rather look at the results and say "Hummm. That's interesting."

 

Carrera GT bedford lap 1:23,3
997 Turbo S bedford lap 1:23,4
Porsche 997 GT2 bedford lap 1:23,5

Re-boot brain and check car datas. You can get it by yourself

 

I agree with you, it seems the McLaren fans have only one line of debate, lets also not forget the affect track temp can have on lap times as well as the fact two different testers may have been used.

What I fail to understand is why people cannot accept the verdict that these 3 magazines all prefer the 458, whats so hard about that, does it make the Mac a bad car, of course it doesnt it just means on that day, in those conditions thet preferred the 458. Who know cruising down in Florida or in LA the Mac may well be better.

 

Remind me, apart from Harris where also does this "evidence" come from, please refer us to more sources.

 

Car magazine's test due out on the 20th of June. Here is a preview. It starts out saying Mclaren said their car is the fastest in it's segement then ends with "get ready for a shock". Interesting.....

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results/First-drives/McLaren-MP4-12C-vs-the-world-the-ultimate-supercar-group-test/

 

It's the fact that Mclaren put so much hype into their lightness, and then it turned out to not be true (even if the 458 used is underweight the MP4 is way above claimed). They also put a lot of hype into the car being substantially faster on the track... that's now been disproven too. It's the fact that this car has not met up to any of it's expectations and is also less desirable in an emotional sense than the 458, that is what is driving it's supporters mad. It's a flop in both ways... perhaps they feel cheated because they were so blatantly lied too

Here's an explanation for the press not liking the test car. It wasn't as good as the pre-production car because the pre-production car was a "ringer." That accusation is as plausible as what is said against the 458.

 

Good post and perhaps you are right, lets be honest the pressure was on McLaren to really deliver on their lofty promises....

 

But it's their OWN FAULT. Its Ron Dennis with this ridiculous Ferrari fixation instead of just making and marketing a great car.

Seriously... who cares about "lightness"? When you shop for a car, is that what you look for first? Wow! That car is 100 lbs lighter! Thats the one I want!

Who cares about 0 to 60 times beyond the general understanding of "it's fast"? Does 0 to 60 in 3.6 sec instead of 3.4 seconds really matter at all when you plunk down a quarter million?

Who cares about track time? Can anyone here tell me that Nuremberg times for a 308? Ok, lets get a little more recent: How about an F430? Does Porsche have a huge banner outside their showrooms showing the latest track time from Germany?

When you buy a super car, you're buying a dream (or really, a fantasy). If that car tickles your fancy, you'll buy it. If it doesn't, you won't.

Ron thinks this is a "race". It's not a race. The faster car doesn't always win in this event. The exciting car does.

He hasn't figured that out yet in this soul- less, boring to look at, machine. He's made the Sharper Image of cars. Classy, honest, purposeful.... but we'd rather buy something else.

 

Fantastic post, if I am ever in your part of the world the first drink is on me.Your post sums it up perfectly, people dont care for specifics its about how you react to a car as you say that fantasy and that dream. People still today dream of a 308 despite that in todays terms its more classic than fast, does that bother then, no it doesnt, because when you climb in, start the V8, put it into first you are experiencing something unique.

Bottom line, the supercar world has never been about objective fact but rather about subjective experiences.

 

Here's Chris Chilton from CAR confirming Harris' story:
http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122&page=6

 

No, you would not cancel it, since no matter what credible journalists say, you will always find a way to convince yourself that everything is OK. You are actually doing it as we speak.

They have been cheating before, it's a good bet they have not changed their tactics. Especially, after seeing how much success they have had with their target audience, which is so well represented on this forum.

 

Might I make a suggestion, enjoy McLaren life, this is FerrariChat and no argument you can present here can overshadow the fact that 3, yes 3 magazines and yes British ones ALL preferred the 458 over the McLaren.

I am still waiting for another poster who professes to be an expert in road testing customer US 458s to chime in about the many cars he has tested, alas I fear we wont get this "valuable" insight.

As for McLaren life.....best I dont comment

 

There are two different issues here. One is the McLaren hype, which seems (pending other tests) to be false. Yes, I feel cheated, and I don't like being lied to. Second, I know that many ferrarichatters cannot quite comprehend that, but lying is actually wrong, whoever it comes from.

 

Explain to us how we know that McLaren of all people didnt make their initial drive cars a bit faster, afterall they have a fantastic record of truth...oh dear what am I saying.

 

Do you have enough evidence now, or will you still continue to rationalize it away? Both Harris and Chilton lying?

 

You still have very hard time to comprehend that lying by anybody is wrong. It's a simple concept, yet it seems to escape you. Again, LYING is WRONG. Does not matter whether Ferrari or McLaren does it. Got it, now?

 

According to Evo during the four day test the cars stayed on the same tyres and were not allowed to change them for the track test. Both factory support crews (Mclaren's was claimed to be bigger than Ferrari's) were not allowed near the cars at all. After the first run Mclaren's crew were then allowed to put on their Corsa tyres which improved the time but was still slower than the 458's.
It's worth noting for those who cry foul that Chris Harris (the man being quoted a lot recently) also decided that he prefered the 458...
Not trying to take sides here but this is straight from the mag.

 

I wouldn't call what McLaren has said is "false". I think they are scenere. But, I do believe some of the BS about doors with electronic locks and "one hidge" on the doors are BS and frankly, hurts their case.

For sure, things like the CF tub and the lighter battery are proven weight savers. But.... come on.... an electronic door lock is there to save weight? Silly. Even if it's true it reminds me of someone with ADD -- like that guy Monk on TV.

 

Sounds like Ron could care less about people like Enzo did

 

I actually understand the concept well, however seeing as nobody here has been proved to be lying I fail to see the issue.

 

We agree... lying is wrong.

We also agree everyone has done it and it should be stamped out.


But, if there were EVER a time to do it, this test would have been it. Harris himself was in the test (proving that no blackballing from Ferrari occured from his outburst) and if anyone had the chance to make his point on this issue, it was Harris.

Either Evo is involved in the lying or this test is legit. There is no other choice here.