458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

As a race car driver in both pro and amateur series I cannot believe the postings on this thread...From the way most of the people on here drive I bet I could be in a 360 Stradale and beat all these new owners in their 458's and MP4-123xyz.......whatever the hell the call the thing...on track.

My point being posers who buy based on laptimes usually could never get within 25% of the cars potential on track and magazine writers know this hence they judge based on the overall experience and not just hard numbers...however I am surprised to hear the heavier Ferrari with the NA engine and no forced induction was faster than MPxzx123....

Besides, in my extended life experiences, when sitting at a bar and trying to pick up the smoking chick sitting between me and my buddy.....all OTHER things being equal..who would she go with...The guy who says he has a "McLaren MPCxyz123" or the guy who says I have the "Ferrari".....and isn't this what most "numbers" guys are looking to achieve after all?

 

Kids do i need to pull this (insert your ultimate supercar here) and leave you all here?

Both are great cars that fulfill different things for different people, they are both amazing in their own right and given the perfect garage I bet most people would love to own both.


But everyone needs to remember there will always be a better, faster, luxurious, and superior car out there. Either from the factory or after some tweaking from a tuner shop.

 

You keep bringing this point up. But, the published Ferrari dry weight is 1380 KG (in Euro trim and I'm sure with racing seats and minimal options and of course, no fluids).

Ok. Evo tested it and it weighted 1469kg (3231 lbs) -- almost 90 KG HIGHER than Ferrari's published weight. Sounds normal -- and maybe a bit aggressive -- for fluids (gas, oil, water, antifreeze, refrigerant, etc). After all, the Mac has the same issue.

But, let's look at the Evo test.

Now, the independent weighing of a production Italia was 1598 kg (3515 lbs) WITH A FULL TANK OF GAS and fully optioned ---source:

http://www.zercustoms.com/news/Ferrari-458-Italia-200-kg-Heavier-Than-Official-Weight.html

I checked the Swiss test and it was a fully optioned car with electric seats, etc.

Source:

http://www.asphalte.ch/news/?p=1263

That's a difference of 129 Kg (284 lbs) between the way Evo ran it and one completely optioned and topped up.

Gas runs about 6.1 lbs per gallon. That's 122 lbs if the car has 20 more gallons in it than it's test run (the Italia fuel tank holds over 22 gallons). It's normal to test cars with low fuel loads and the same betweeen the different cars being tested.

So, if you deduct 122 lbs from 3515 lbs you get 3393 lbs. Take out the two electric seats that the Swiss test car definately had ---

http://www.asphalte.ch/news/wp-content/gallery/ferrari-458-italia/ferrari_458_07.jpg

and you save another 50 KG (110 lbs) and get to 3283. Ok, off by a 50 lbs from the Evo weight -- or about a 1.1% difference.

Yah, but take out a little bit more options and it's NOT IMPOSSIBLE to get the weight off another 50 lbs without cheating. Ferrari would be foolish for not providing a minimum weight optioned car for a test like this. You must admit that --- and I'm sure Mac did the same.

You keep saying it's impossible and must be a fraud for the Ferrari to be at the tested weight. Well, I challenge YOU to find evidence that it is A FRAUD because as far as I can see, it IS possible to do without cheating.

And, I also submit, if it was as obvious as you say (off by hundreds of pounds), Evo MUST HAVE KNOWN and therefore are the same cheats and liars you call Ferrari.

So, put up or shut up. Show us your evidence that it's not possible to be at that test weight.

 

And there it is, the thread defining post. Nice one.

 

any link to the EVO test?

 

Neither, she would realize that guys who bought supercars to impress the opposite sex are trying to overcompensate for something.

Sorry, couldn't resist

 

Now, Now...we are not talking about Corvettes and Trans-Ams here

 

When I was 20, maybe. But, after 25 years of F car ownership, that went away a long time ago.

Now, I appreciate more in life -- like fine automobiles of all kinds and era's -- for myself.

I've said this before many times: Girls don't like Ferrari's (and wouldn't know a McLaren from a hole in the ground). They like Mercedes. If you want to impress a woman, buy a big fancy Merc.

Then, after the divorce, she gets to drive it while you still make the payments.


Seriously.. if you Mac guys want to impress a woman, pry off that silly "Saturn" logo and slap on a Mercedes star.

 

First a couple of definitions for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight

There is slight difference with DIN curb weight, which is with fuel tank 90% full. That's actually the definition McLaren uses in their publications.

Whichever way you go, curb weight is always with fuel. It is not normal to not to include fuel in kerb weight at all.

The convincing evidence is here:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/comparison/ferrari-458-italia-vs.-lamborghini-gallardo-superleggera

Look at the data panel. They got 3490 CURB WEIGHT (includes fuel) for a car with sport wheels and sport seats. Ferrari quotes a dry weight of 3042 for a car with sport wheels and racing seats. Fluids and fuel are typically around 200 lbs with some small variation. ERGO: the dry weight of US Italia is not 3042.

There is a funny story with dry weight, by the way. When the Manhattan showroom reopened back in the summer last year, the Italia on display there listed a dry weight of 3200 (which definitely made sense), when I went back to spec my car in October, they changed it to 3042.

 

You are so right, posers with Ferraris get all the chicks. Good job.That's why I am getting one like the rest of the guys here.

 

I simple don’t understand where the 3 seconds gain come from.
The 458 and GT2RS were tested both in same day in Italy at Nardò handling course (length 2800 m).
So we have a god starting point, track very similar to Bedford and tested on same day
Both were press cars (I hope deutsche uber alles mode was off)
Results : GT2 RS 1:11,5 – 458 1:12,9 then 1,4 seconds difference per lap
Recent EVO 458 had Pilot Suspersport so this gap could be easily under the seconds.
I checked GT2 RS reviews in Bedford just today. Breezy day, temperature just over 10°. Not a perfect day and perfect condition to exploit Michelin pilot sport cup +, I know very well how my Lotus Yokohama A038 worked. We can estimate a full 1 second better time.
Plus maybe Roger green (who tested GT2 RS) is not fast as John Barker (who tested the 458 in the first EVO test),
Now do the math.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r5hMYwd0Vs&feature=fvst[/ame]
Judging ride height and body roll of the 458, suspensions are stock ….

I have to say it’s a bit strange to me talking about GT2 RS / GT3 RS cars. They have full adjustable suspensions (ride height, camber, caster, F/R sway bar) so frankly you never know what you are testing …

 

The 3 secs come from Hockenheim-versus-Bedford comparison:
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim_short.html
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/bedford_autodrome_west_circuit_post_062008.html

It goes from RS2 2.1 sec ahead at Hockenheim, to .6 sec behind at Bedford: a swing of 2.7 secs.

Actually, Nardo times are perfect example. They swing by .7 sec from the Hockenheim differential. That's hard, but easily believable. Anything within a sec can happen. 3 (ok, 2.7 ) secs are much harder to believe, especially against two different cars (both Gumpert and RS2).

 

A challenge to kryzs

Put up or shut up on the cheating issue.

Call Evo tonight and demand proof that Ferrari cheated on this test.

Tell them that if they don't, you're going to post on every car forum that they are liars and in bed with Ferrari. Their credibility will be zero.

I have already shown you using independent data and reports that is is possible to run the test at this weight.

Yet you---alone in your infinite wisdom can see an obvious problem that a third grader should be able to spot.

Until you demonstrate evidence that is impossible (your own words) that the car could be run legitimately at this weight, I suggest you can it.

I have shown it can be done. You have shown nothing but your own personal beliefs while demonstrating disrespect to Evo, Ferrari, and the members in thus forum.

It's time to put your money where your mouth is.

Show us Evo is corrupt and Ferrari is blatantly cheating as you have said over and over in this forum.

Show us or keep it to yourself.

 

No, the only thing you showed is lack of understanding of the definition of curb weight, so far.

Again, the laptimes are out of whack, Ferrari clearly "misleads" on car weights as amply demonstrated here. Plus, credible journalists accuse Ferrari of a long history of cheating. It's not criminal proceeding where we are looking for proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The preponderance of evidence should induce some doubts even in the blindest of fanboys. But, no, the struggle with evidence will continue forever. It's amusing to a degree. What other thing are you gonna confuse yourself about? There are so many possibilities. Get to work.

 

krzys,
Evo (Bedford) and Sport auto (Hockenhaim + ring) tested the same 458 (plate DP544TV).
So you pass from 2,1s gap in Hockenhaim to a 0,4s gap in Bedford in comparison to a GT2 RS. This clearly shows there is variability between different test and circuits with the same car.
Another full example :
The 458 - DP544TV plate was tested by Autobild on the ring performing (with Sasha Bert) a full lap (20,832 Km) in 7:32,9 sec (with passenger) when Autosport was only able to reach only 7:37,8 but (in the 20,6 Km configuration) that means about 7:44 on a full lap. A 11 seconds difference that could be higher without passenger of Autobild test.
If I'm wrong what you call '458 ringer' easily won the rockingham contest of car magazine against GT2 RS and MC Laren. It's the same car of new evo test ...

 

How could SportAuto and EVO test the same car, when they reported 55kg difference in curb weights?

 

At last I've managed to read more EVO now than just the 32 page test.

Harris writes an article each month in EVO, this month he actually talks about his previous rant on Jalapnik about manufacturers rigging tests and now writes - 'In the end, the prerogative lies with the magazine editors to control this situation. For too long now they've allowed certain manufacturers to take the piss, just so they could score the exclusive, or be the first. Or just be kind. I'm glad to say EVO doesn't fall into this camp, hence why we've been last to a few new products of late.'

So in the magazine that pronounces the 458 is better and faster than MP4 Harris in his own article says that EVO won't allow manufacturers to cheat.

Come on conspiracy theorists lets have the explanation now!

 

Kryzs: did you even read my post? Apparently not because I didn't use Ferrari's numbers or curb weights at all.

If you're going to defend your accusations, at least read the evidence first.

What I did was take an independent test and deduct from the weight deductions based on the weights of the two cars at separate times.

It shows that it is reasonable and possible for the weight to be true and correct.

You however get today's troll award. You are a bomb thrower. All you do is yell fire over and over and when asked to prove where the fire is, you change the subject and refuse to stand behind your slanderous claims.

I feel sorry for you. To stoop to calling car reviewers who you respected in the past under the bus just because a test didn't go your way is shameful.

 

http://imageshack.us/f/291/55635582.jpg/

Sport Auto Supertest Curb weight 1540 Kg (Fahrzeug voll getankt means car with tank filled up)

Picture plate DP544TV

http://imageshack.us/f/823/43182578.jpg/

Now EVO (1546 Kg)

http://imageshack.us/f/42/evopmc.jpg/

The plate is visible on the EVO video I posted. DP544TV ...

 

And as I suspected, RACING SEATS and CF dash instead of Daytona full power seats and die cast dash in the "controversial" Swiss test.

It's time someone admit he's been wrong in making claims that Evo and Ferrari are cheating.

It's game, set and match -- UNLESS Evo is lying or intentionally in bed with this OBVIOUS Ferrari "cheating" as someone has claimed OVER and OVER in this thread.

 

bdelp- Cannot even believe you are still engaging this numb-nuts. You have the patience of a saint. Cheers. I have not seen so much circular logic in a long time.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Out of curiosity, I know the racing seats are much lighter than stock, but does the CF dash really make that big of a difference? I've seen the video of them making some CF pieces which all looked external and actually putting it in an autoclave, but i know some manufacturers just overlay the CF on the preexisting dash and use a heavy gloss gelcoat, so it negates the weight savings.

 

Well, it's not for me. I think Evo deserves someone sticking up for them. They do a great job, and have for years.

I wasn't happy about the Harris/Japonik (aka Ferrari hating) blog accusations of "Ferrari cheating" that someone here likes to bring up every 5 seconds.

But I was never upset because he "blew the whistle". I said corruption needed to be weeded out.

I objected because Harris pointed the finger at only one company without giving any credible evidence to his claims. I thought it was a cheap shot -- an internet rant actually-- on what could have been a good, eye opening expose' by an auto journalist.

So, to continue to slander Harris and Evo after this poorly handled but important issue is wrong. Some people need to be told that we aren't going to put up with it.

 

My point is that after I deducted the obvious weight savings between the Swiss test car and the Evo test car, I was left with a 50 lb difference. My belief is that 50 lbs can be removed from the car without cheating. The dash in the Swiss car was die cast. The dash in the Evo test was CF. I was just using it as an example that it is possible to remove 50 lbs here and there without cheating.

I was trying to keep things apples to apples from two independant testing groups with two very different cars.

Do I have proof? No. But, is it IMPOSSIBLE that it could be this weight? No. It's not impossible as someone has claimed since post #18 where it was claimed the weight must be 3600 and post #163 where the first accusation of Ferrari cheating was raised.