458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

Its very easy to remove 50LBS especially while building the car, the car can be minus the AFS system, Lift system, no upgraded stereo or Nav, parking sensors and upgraded mirrors. They will know which is heavier the standard carpet or alcantara even with the headliner, the lighter Forged wheels (which makes the biggest difference), depending on how much use the car has had and how heavy the breaking has been unsprung weight can be lost in the rotor and pad wear. Also it can be little things like just having the 4 point harness and no regular seatbelts with their locking mechanisms or they can even go as far as using a lighter weight paint to shave ounces.

All in All it adds up but one thing stays consistent, its the same car being tested by everyone.


But i have to agree with everyone....well most everyone. I could care less what a magazine says about my car, its more of how I use it and enjoy it. If i wanted the fastest car out there and couldn't afford a Pagani Zonda R or justify it, i'd build it. I've tracked all my cars from a Renault R5 Turbo II to a Lancia Integrale EVO II and even my X5 M...but yet i still have dedicated track cars (Exige S240 and a 79 320i group2). I track them because i enjoy driving them myself to their limits and my limits not because im trying to reproduce what a magazine told me.

 

EASY explanation: everyone at EVO is lying

seriously though, it seems the McL andCompany and Mc hopefuls really really really underestimated their primary rival, the 'fat' 'slow' 458 (an out and out street car designed to be fast, fun, AND comfy). back in the day, after the MP4 specs came out, lots of us sat back and said 'err...we'll see'..and now we are seeing. the MP needed to be reasonably involving and MUCH faster or else it would be deemed a 'failure' compared to the 458. McL marketing machine is losing steam with every new 'we prefer the (overweight) Ferrari' result that comes out, so what now?

 

May I say "duh!". I totally agree and have said that about 50 times in this thread.

But, it's totally UNFAIR to throw out accusations of corruption and cheating without merit and continue to defend it when the evidence is just not there.

 

thread is growing like a weed comparison tests, lap times, etc, etc, are great for what they are, and that's a guide of sorts...but most of us agree with your summation. at the end of the day, it comes down to how a particular car 'connects' with YOU, and your particular wants and needs for that car, and your subjectivities. see, the 458 would no doubt kick the CGT in the nuts around most race tracks (orig stock vs stock) but given enough green for either awesome machine, i would still take the Porsche

 

+1
Don't understand why others feel the need to hammer their opinions or beliefs down someone else's throats. The MP4 could have, many would say should have, been designed to be gorgeous and sexy...but sadly it wasn't IMHO and since it's my money buying the car, that's the opinion that means the most to me. 458 wins.

 

Read post #123 on page 7.

It's been true since the Mac was first introduced. Here it is word for word again ----


I can see where we are headed. Another 60 page thread of the same arguments we made months ago.

Let's just be clear so we can stay away from the boring and usual:

1) Most Fchatters LIKE the Mac and respect it's technology and performance

2) Most Fchatters think that the Mac's introduction will force Ferrari to raise it's game. Competition is good for the breed.

3) Most Fchatters think the Mac isn't as good looking or exciting as it should be. I would think most Lambo owners would say the same and maybe even more so.

4) Most Fchatter's don't believe that what a car can do on a high speed track has anything to do with their selection process. That goes for technology too.


Now, we can move on...

 

Its very easy, its easier to blame an outside source instead of seeing that the problem lays within.

So Mclaren bought a 458 for the purpose of building a better car than the 458. They supposedly succeed in doing this in some aspects. But doesn't this sounds like another childrens story? Pinocchio, he built himself the perfect boy, some how gave it life, but something was missing...... Soul. From what i've read in all these reviews, that is what the Mclaren is lacking....a bit of fire, bit of passion and what makes a ferrari a ferrari, character and soul.

 

+1.

 

How do you answer to this Kryz? Why so silent? This now proves the 458 in the EVO test was an example you can spec at your local Ferrari dealership. It is now proven that at Bedford the 458 is faster than the MP4 and that the weight as tested is completely legit. As you have stated Harris and Chilton are the only journalists that were not complicit or straight up lying. They are the only journalists who do not lie (your words). What say you to this?

I eagerly await your Mclaren orange kool-aid and fanboyism logic that would twist and blind you of the same evidence you used.

 

How idiotic of McLaren. They forgot to check the "soul" box when they designed the car. How could they have committed such a cardinal sin? Never mind that "soul" means different things to different people, but damn it, they forgot to include it. How foolish of them!

http://community.evo.co.uk/users/Roger-Green/blogs/index.cfm/2011/3/2/ROGER-GREEN-The-new-McLaren-isnt-soulless

 

Sorry, despite appearances, I do not sit at the computer all the time. I do have stuff to do. Anyway, again my concern was never if it was faster than mp4, only why it was so fast compared to gumpert and rs2. That point stands, pending me looking at luque's data.
As to Harris, I was just making an obvious point that he would not lie against his interests, not that he was a model of integrity. As to the weight, again, I am still waiting for the explanation why dry weight and r&t weight differ so much. The Swiss weight and R&t weight are in a good agreement since the difference between electric and racing seats should be roughly 50 lbs.

 

Actually you've proved most of our points... It isn't about the lap times or curb or dry weights, it's what the car does for YOU. For Roger the Mclaren was his choice, but for the vast majority of others (going by the magazine tests) they prefer the Ferrari. Be proud of your choice, I don't decry you of that. It's when Mclaren supporters take to mudslinging about Ferrari and it's owners/enthusiasts when in fact their own mudslinging about lying is actually based on nothing at all.

 

Kool-aid, your own evidence back fired on you and now you can't admit it. I don't care if you like McLaren, that's sad on any level

 

Again, it boils down to how Ron Dennis decided to build this organization and market the car.

His idea is to "beat Ferrari" on every level -- performance, technology, speed, customer service, etc.

Well, those are great goals, but what about Audi? What about Porsche? What about Mercedes or Bugatti or any other performance car maker? Many of those already have better "whatever" than Ferrari and high performance cars.

Instead of worrying about "Ferrari", he should have just built the best car he could. I'm sure a lot of people would have respected that.

But no.... his first car had to be against Ferrari's bread and butter and obvious comparison.

I feel the same way about how he's rolling out the car. To me, it makes ZERO sense for him to introduce this car in the USA in the first year. It's too much of a stretch for a company that has never done it before. Sell the bloody thing in Europe for a year, get the bugs out, and then introduce it to the largest market in the world WHEN YOU ARE READY.

That would have been long term thinking. But, it wouldn't put a finger in FNA's eye enough for Ron to admit he's "not ready for prime time".

That's why these kinds of tests are so gnawing to McLaren. They were supposed to be the best. If that was the goal, it looks like they failed.

But, if there were just to make great cars, then we'd all be celebrating what a great machine they built.

Too bad Ron's ego couldn't let him admit he's not as good as Ferrari... yet.

 

Thanks I think I'm in the (extremely rare) minority because I really like both cars very much. I dig the Italia's style as much as I like the MP4's engineering.

I do, however, raise eyebrows at automotive reviewers when they fault the McLaren in certain departments. They claim that natural aspiration is better than turbo, and yet place cars the 288 GTO and the F40 among their greatest-of-all-time lists, despite the latter two cars being turbocharged. They claim that one car has heapings of soul while one doesn't, despite what I posted ealier that soul means different things to different people.

With the next Enzo being turbocharged, I'll be waiting to hear the same reviewers criticize it for having turbos.

 

Yah... 50 lbs PER SEAT!

Ummmm you YOURSELF in the past said the Mac dealer told you it was 40 to 50 Kg between electric and race seats.


I'm using your own quoted numbers. I found it on GOOGLE when asking how much electric seats weigh in the 12C.

Can't you ever tell the truth? OK... that's a bit tough but lets get off the cheating crap because you're losing that argument big time.

 

Reading last months EVO actually answered that exact question, I recommend reading it

 

Two of the best loved "modern era" Ferrari's of all time: the F40 and the 288 GTO are turbo charged. I don't think that argument will stick.

 

Read my above post The article explains why these cars rank so high emotionally with them (I actually think it was Harris who wrote the article)

 

Hawkeye bought one and I asked him in a PM to describe it and if it was what he thought it would be.

I'll let him discuss it himself but I have to say, the F40 has emotion and passion heaped upon one another. He adores the car.

 

Harris himself

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhR2lXJNg3M[/ame]

Pay special attention to very last part of the video

The article of course goes more in depth, it's a really good read

 

lol i hadn't seen that article!! Trust me if I had more disposable income I would have a mclaren as well, but at 300K i can only justify one purchase like this for the year, so for me the 458 was the winner.

Lots of people used the soulless arguement with the Nissan GTR that it was a point and shoot car. Do people even compare the lexus LFA with any of these cars?

 

Crud, I cannot afford either one, but given the choice....

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Well, I'm lucky enough to know two owners... Hawkeye and William H. To me, that's amazing enough.

This is the best thing about this thread. In the end, we all admit we like the Mac, like the 458 and adore the F40.

Who could possibly disagree with that?