458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

What? Are we posting facts again? Geez this is going to get dangerous.

Did I mention post four hundred fifty should be read by all?

 

Are you getting closer to 172 or are you still at 1?

 

So now you actually are claiming that the whole staff of EVO are complete idiots despite the fact that they have much more experience around supercars and tracktimes and driving than you do. You think they are completely ignorant to their actual jobs? If that's true then why were you so explicitly trusting of them that you were going to cancel your order for your McLaren, meaning you took their word as the truth completely. How can you rationalize trusting someone you think doesn't know how to do their job? Look at all the things you are saying man, take a step back and analyze all the scenarios you are trying to give. It's not rational

Kryz, you are really stretching a whole lot of things to get an answer you want to hear...

 

What is the answer I want to hear? The only thing I am saying is that we need to stay suspicious of Ferrari times given, the published weight discrepancies, enormous gains in track performance and well known journalists saying before and continuing to say that Ferrari provides ringers for tests.

EVO guys are not idiots, but it does not mean they are angels. Notice, Harris still maintains the practice goes on in the business. If the times were particularly slow in Bedford, then his story makes sense, but if they are relatively much faster, then his (recent) story does not make sense. Obviously one possibility is that he lied before and he lies now (about other mags), but what goes against that interpretation is the confirmation from Chilton.

As to my decision on McLAren it is not driven by comparative times against Italia (since implicitly I don't trust them), but against other cars.

 

You are choosing to brush aside Harris' statement that the 458 in the EVO test is legitimate. You will believe Harris' on one aspect but claim he is lying on another. That sounds like desperately seeking an answer under your own set of circumstances.

So one journalist agreed with Harris, among how many journalists? Why would more not back him? Why not friends of his like Sutcliffe from Autocar, Jethro from CAR, Roger Green, Dickie Meaden. You said not two hours ago that Ferrari was less suspect, but now your back to accusing them of completely lying...

Remember, if you believe what Harris is saying then that means Chris Chilton (since he is not from EVO) is actively involved in the lying. So Chilton would agree with Harris so that Harris could then say that Chilton is involved in the scheming? That kind of hurts his crediblity... Or is he just interested in piggybacking off the publicity Harris generated. If you actually look at it from an unbiased perspective the fact that only two journalists agree with eachother doesn't really make a case... So if two people claim something and no one else backs them (out of nearly hundreds of journalists) we should believe them? What is the ratio there? You mean to claim that somewhere around 99% of journalists and publications are complicit? Do you honestly think that is rational? Remember Harris saw no repurcussions, he is still allowed to test Ferrari's cars, his career was harmed in no way, it was only helped with increased publicity.

Remember you also said you don't know Harris and that you don't know his personal character or integrity, which I'm guessing is the same as Chilton... So where does that leave you hanging on their claims as if they were bastions of truth? You do realize that you contradict yourself there right?

You are also claiming:

Either EVO are too stupid to feel a car is underweight and overpowered, meaning they have no sense of feel for a car at it's limits, or even basic driving for that matter. Or that they are all a part of this vastly sophisticated and elaborate scheme to screw over McLaren, a company from their homeland. Yes, they will lie for Ferrari to make McLaren and it's British engineers look juvenile or unskilled... The whole British press for that matter!!

You can't make up your mind whether Ferrari cheated or not, you have flopped sides several times now. Generally that means someone has no facts to base their claims on.

What you have failed to address anytime it's brought up is the fact that you will trust magazines even though you suspect them of lying. If that were true why would you believe the numbers suggested by ANY manufacturer from ANY magazine on ANY track with ANY driver. Remember I say this because you expressed your explicit trust for EVO, then not EVO, then not any magazine that isn't EVO, then only Harris and Chilton, then maybe not Harris. Then you said you don't think EVO knows what they are doing and that they are completely ignorant to cars. Is there any real direction your taking here?

 

Hey! I took a nap.

Did I miss the part where Kyrzs explains how the Mac is better because the paint is thinner? Why, that must save another 20 grams!

I wanted to see that one. Darn.

 

OK, time for a diversion.

When the F40 came out, it was slandered by automotive journalists at the time. Everyone compared it unfavorably to the Porsche 959. See Car Magazine's headline for proof:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_qr-1krWUXqc/TAwsd_yLv_I/AAAAAAAAELo/pz38ZyM4eos/FPcover.jpg

Now, of course, most people acknowledge the F40 as the superior car.

Anyone notice any parallels? Maybe in another decade or two, the MP4 might be perceived as the better car. Automotive journalism is quite fickle, and what may be fantastic today might not be as well remembered tomorrow.

Just some food for thought...

 

It's possible. But, remember today that they still like BOTH the F40 and the 959.

Remember that the press hated the Daytona. They looked at the Miura and Espada and wondered how they could build something so weird looking and out of date.

Now what do people say?

 

Definitely both are liked; but the 959 has a sort of cult following while the F40's appeal is universal. And the press definitely mocked the Daytona, because they thought Ferrari was a fool for not going with the mid-engine layout like the Miura.

Another similar comparison would be the 348 vs. Honda NSX -- although I think the 458 is a much better car than the 348 ever was. The NSX really forced Ferrari to go all out, resulting in the awesome 355.

If the 458 successor has a carbon tub, then 100% of the credit has to go to the McLaren.

 

here in middle of the page
http://www.germancarforum.com/458-italia/34042-sport-auto-supertest-ferrari-458-italia.html

Here in Sport auto website

http://www.sportauto-online.de/bilder/ferrari-458-italia-im-test-auf-der-nordschleife-forza-italia-1913091.html?fotoshow_item=1

 

Here is the quote:

'In the end, the prerogative lies with the magazine editors to control this situation. For too long now they've allowed certain manufacturers to take the piss, just so they could score the exclusive, or be the first. Or just be kind. I'm glad to say EVO doesn't fall into this camp, hence why we've been last to a few new products of late.'

Ferrari aren't confirmed as having done anything in this latest quote. Perhaps he was in this case referring to MP4's running with more boost at the first track tests in Spain and now being slower because EVO won't let them get away with it! Were EVO later with MP4 tests than others due to delay?

 

This thread is hilarious. It may seem like Kryz is ignoring what is a ridiculous amount of evidence, but I've heard birthers argue louder. LOL

 

There is a slight fly in the ointment for the Ferrari Supplied A Ringer conspiracy theory. 3 magazine placed the 458 ahead of the McLaren yet it was two different 458s getting tested. I guess they must have supplied two ringers...

 

You've all seen James Bond, the number plates rotate and the color is changed at the flick of a switch - if they can make it disappear changing color should be childs play!

 

He might be talking about McLaren here, no doubt, but obviously they did not have many cars before. However, everybody here assumes that he is talking about Ferrari, in the context of his previous statements. Amazingly enough, somehow everybody thinks here that he absolves ferrari if wrong doing when he does no such thing.

 

Ignoring evidence? Oh man. Ok, straight up, explain to me why r&t and Swiss car weighed so much compared to stated dry weights. Don't run away from the answer, please go ahead, tell me why.

If you can't, don't talk about evidence ever again.

 

I don't think is absolving anyone, but he does go out of his way to say he believes EVO to the best of their knowledge are not party to any 'tactics'. I guess there is only so far anyone can go to check the legitimacy of what they are testing. As he also says in the article - 'the truth will out'.

 

You are right, it looks like the same car. It is somewhat massive swing between hockenheim and Bedford: 1.7 sec. I cannot quite see how this is possible, though. In general, Bedford times look very ot of whack, compared to all the others ( including all the other British mags). This last fact looks like the strongest evidence against a ringer hypothesis.

 

I have flopped several times? Do you understand the concept of evidence? I am trying to decide how strong the evidence is depending on what comes in. Amazingly enough, you (and many others here) cannot understand the simple fact that I don't have any preconceived notion. I know for fanboys it just does not compute. They have already decided before seeing anything and will run away if conflicting evidence comes into view.

I said clearly i trust the measured times, I don't necessarily trust the cars setting those times. Is that distinction also hard to understand? Come on.

I am not claiming that EVO are too stupid. Where did I say that?


Another distinction that seems to escape everybody: I never said Harris or Chilton are bastions of truth. People typically don't lie against their own interests. Why would people en masse not go out and testify against their own interest? I know, shocking. It simply never happens anywhere.

 

The problem I have with Harris' statements (first and second) is that looking closer at Bedford times, they look the most out of whack compared to other mags. In other words, if you just look at lap times and nothing else, if anybody's cheating it is EVO, while everybody else looks ok (including other British mags).

 

yeah, i was out ... but this is just too much fun!

no sign of contradiction or flip-flopping there! nope. not one bit.

my recommendation : please stay as far away from Ferrari as possible. You are right, Ferrari does nothing but lie and cheat, and we are nothing but a bunch of blind fanboys

Why would someone of your great intellect and integrity want to be associated with the likes of us? We don't deserve you. Choose wisely for yourself, choose elsewhere.

bye bye now.

 

You forgot: read post 450. The Dali Lama gave it to me.

 

Arithmetic. Reading comprehension. Did you inherit the money?

 

Honesty, truth, justice, good will towards your fellow man.

Find it in post 450.