458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

Why do they call it MclarenLife? Seems like a bit of a contradiction in terms.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. So it is dull AND slow. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

Jonathan

 

i got the message ... loud & clear, honestly. BOTH of the two cars in the title of this thread are fantastic machines (i'm making an assumption about the McLaren ... haven't driven it, or even see it live yet). But this thread really isn't about either of the cars ...

What's really at the heart of the debate is someone who's looking for a magazine to tell him which car to buy. He disguises it as a "search for truth", but it's really an insecure search for approval ... from a magazine. That's the basic issue ... and here's one (humorous) way that it manifests:

When pressed, he finally admits that EVO is his authority ... the magazine he believes. And clearly Chris Harris is his folk hero, because he "blew the whistle" on evil Ferrari. So his authority is now established : EVO magazine, and/or Chris Harris. But guess what happens, the most unexpected result of all : EVO picks the 458 over the 12C, both subjectively and objectively (lap time). Furhtermore, Chris Harris himself has blessed the EVO results as being genuine, and beyond reproach. Now the world is in crisis ... so we now must pull in data from other sources (Road & Track curb weights, for example), when we KNOW that these other sources are not on his "approved authority" list. So the hand-waving, backtracking, flip-flopping ensues ... diversions of half-baked arithmetic (using data from non-approved sources, mind you), feeble attempts to remind everybody that Ferrari really are still liars, its fans are nothing but blind idiots, etc.

But alas, all the handwaving & backtracking won't change the real issue : he's looking for a magazine to tell him what to buy, and his ONLY recognized authority in his strange, insecure world (EVO, not Road & Track or anyone else) has confounded him with a result he doesn't like. Well, at least he does recognize that, if you're looking for someone else to tell you what you're going to enjoy, you've got to decide who is the best, most trusted "authority" ... and that's been decided (until an unsatisfying result is reported, anyway).

Assuming he really does have the funds to actually purchase one of these incredible machines, i picture him returning his first choice as soon as the next issue arrives on the shelf which declares the other one as the winner on the track de jour ...

It's quite sad, but not really worth any more time I'm quite serious ... i hope he doesn't choose the Ferrari. Can you imagine the threads that will follow, when a magazine reports that it lost on some circuit some day? The F-chat servers will explode!

 

Great video- and also note that Ferrari and Lamborghini have the best sounding engine note as well! McClaren sounded weak as did Porsche and the R8. Would be cool to see a race between the 458 and new Aventador next. I wonder if Lambo would beat Ferrari?

But then again the Aventador is like 450k plus and the 458 Italia is 300k so big price difference!

 

I still find it interesting that they say the 12C would be quicker if you could turn of the Nannies.

For sure, the Stig feels you can drive faster with the 458 without it.

So, that must mean it has some pretty good handling characterists "au naturel". It would be curious to see if the McLaren guys are trying to figure out if they should have a similar "nanny-off" button and if the lap times would improve.

If its just software, it's an easy fix. But, this reminds me of the first Maserati Cambiocorsa's. The software for the gearbox was terrible. Then, they revised it and it was much better. The problem is... everyone thinks the gearbox is trash.

 

I tried to be charitable, but you clearly inherited the money. None of the statements you made are true, as a quick look through my posts will confirm. That obviously assumes some reading comprehension, but that is a mountain you have not yet scaled.

 

I think the nanny explanation is nonsense. Both Ferrari and McLaren can design nannies that help performance, instead of just giving protection. Ferrari has explicitly said so about Italia and McLaren provides ECU's to majority of F1 teams.

 

No, it is still not enough. You found one extreme example of one swing, but there is more going on here. Since we have the Italia swing against two very different cars and different times. The point is that a 3 sec swing is extremely unlikely, that's why there are so few examples. Couple that with lies about weights and history of cheating, and it's hard to take those times at face value.

 

wrong again, genius.

Demonstrating your insecurities, ignorance and inconsistencies (using your own words, no less, see above) has been a fun little pastime ... for me, and just about everyone else in this thread ... but i really gotta go.

EDIT: Please, PLEASE don't buy a Ferrari. Buy the higher-performance McLaren instead. I'm begging you.

 

It may be "nonsense" to you, but it's exactly what the Stig said after driving both. I'm trying to figure out why you think -- having never driven either-- that the comments are "nonsense".

So, the Italia goes FASTER with them turned off than the Mac with them turned on?

Geez how bad is the handling of the Mac then?

I've noticed something in this discussion from day one.

Most of us accept the information given to us and try to understand it.

Others... well one in particular... just seems to reject everything told and promotes his own theories.

 

With the Mac and nanny off mode, is the problem with doing that not down to the fact it doesn't have an LSD or E-Diff? so the traction control is actually performing that function? Maybe a nanny off mode would make it even worse with a standard diff.

John.

 

That comes from the fact that when the scud came out , Ferrari ran demonstration laps with the systems on and off, showing that the difference was small (.5 sec) with a professional behind the wheel. With Italia they claimed that there should be no difference, and I think it was Harris when he ran the first introductory laps when Italia came out, who could not go faster with systems off (he was actually slower). Obviously, he is not a professional and Ferrari was exaggerating, but the difference cannot be large even for a professional driver.

Speaking of theories, do you still accept Ferrari weights as given?

 

Brake-steer is a separate system from stability as such, so turning stability off should not in principle interfere.

 

Should I sell the scud? Go ahead, you can ask me, you don't have to beg.

 

You really don't have much right to tell me what to talk about. You drank the koolaid now you should admit it. I could care less about track lap times or a couple extra pounds. I got in this argument with you about what seems like 1000 of your bs rant posts in the early McLaren thread. The vehicles they were testing had prototype right on the side.

Maybe you should spend more time driving your car then running your mouth. You sit and rant about cheating. Remember a couple years ago when McLaren bought the entire Ferrari f1 design. Boy that's real honorable.

I happen to like the McLaren a lot. Think it's a brilliant engineering exercise. But would I buy one. No way. But don't just call me a fan boy as I would buy many other brands. Porsche, Lamborghini, Aston, etc. The McLaren just leaves me cold. Sorry, but there's not much difference between cars of this class on the street other than looks, sound and yes soul.
Those things are what really matter when you're running with license plates.

As a photographer I absolutely love the 458 . Sorry, call me shallow. I have what is in my opinion one of the all time great car designs in a carb 308 coupe. Is it slow in a straight line compared to either of these cars, 458, or McLaren.? You betcha. Do I care? Not in the least.

Btw- I do actually drive my car. Over 10000 miles per year.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA4DG804VuI[/ame]

 

I may live to regret this but cut krzys some slack. Ferrari do say the electronics on the 458 will help a driver to consistently achieve better lap times and most of the professional driver reviews I've seen back this up.

 

I agree with that. But, when they ask Stig about these particular two cars, he says he can do better in the 458 without the Nannies and believes he could do better in the McLaren if he could do the same.

That has to say something. After all, we all agree he's a good test driver. We all agree the test appears fair (same track, time of day, conditions, etc).

We all agree the Mac is lighter and has more HP (albiet non-aspirated for whatever differences there may be in power delivery).

I mean...2 seconds a lap is not a little amount. For the 458 to do that with the electronics OFF, what does that say about the McLaren with the controls ON?


The thing I find interesting is this.... everyone (including myself) thought that the whatever car McLaren introduced would simply blow anything Ferrari or Lamborghini made right out of the box. It seemed--- so easy. Just make it lighter with more power, a more stiffer chassis, better aerodynamics, and use McLaren's terrific engineers, facilities, software, etc.

But, I guess it isn't so easy after all. Maybe Ferrari actually does know what they are doing when they design and engineer these things.

I'm not saying these tests make me happy or proud or anything like that. I would still by the Italia if it came in 5th (yes, I'd be disappointed but I'd still buy one).

But, it's just kinda reassuring that to reach the top ring of the ladder, it's tougher than it looks than to all us "arm chair engineers".

So, bravo Ferrari. We learned something today. It's a tough world out there in the super car world for sure, and you're going to be tough to beat!

 

unbelievable thread. inevitable

 

You should read the opposition. It's shaken some of them to the core and others sound just like kool aid drinking Ferrari owners:

"I'd never buy a Fiat!"

"Who cares what magazines say!"

"Ferrari always cheats. I don't believe any of it".

"The magazines are all scared of Ferrari!"


But, not a lot of.... Hmmmmm. Interesting results I wasn't expecting. No matter -- I like my choice.


Pretty interesting reading.

 

I thought you wanted to talk about evidence. So, you are gonna be like the majority here and just change the subject?

I did not drink the kool-aid, I was very hopeful and claimed that engineering wise they made the right choices, BUT i always qualified my statements: subject to independent verification. Just earlier this week, somebody here was telling me off for insisting on waiting for independent tests.

I drive my cars hard and I drive them on the track. Actually majority of the miles on my scud came on the track. Consequently, I know what extra 500 pounds do to a car in terms of performance, feel and on track longevity.

And speaking about cheating and evidence again: Ferrari clearly lies about their cars' weight. No doubt about that.

 

I agree with you on the overall conclusion. The promise of much better performance with just sufficiently sound fundamentals did not come to fruition. This is quite apart from the reliability of Ferrari performance (which is not very convincing), but the overall lesson is a very strong one. The supercar top is very competitive and tight.

 

+1...if this guy only drove his car or spent as much time solving something important in life rather than ranting 8 hours a day on here...maybe the world would be....

 

Hey Mod....time to move this over to the Mclaren forum?

 

There's one thing that must be particularly gnawing at the boys in Woking today.

You can just excuse the Ferrari as a cheat and the Porsche as a true track car -- but it's got to be disheartening that almost all of the reports didn't vote it best AND THAT
the 12c came in slower than the out of date, unsophisticated, less powerful, un-aerodynamic "pretty boy" Lambo SPIDER with it's fabric roof blowing in the wind.

Seriously: if Ferrari cheated, what does tell you about the Lambo?

It does make sense. The only thing you can assume is that the McLaren goes well straight but not so well in the twisty bits-- at least now.

If I were Audi today, I'd be ecstatic. .
My low priced sports sedan beat my rival's fancy expensive ubercar and my high priced sports car using ten year old technology beat the latest and greatest a top F 1 team could put together.

Life must be sweet in the Audi camp tonight!