458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

What I showed you Kryzs is that it is POSSIBLE for the Italia to be at that weight and not be cheating.

You, however, have not shown any data that it is IMPOSSIBLE, yet you continue on this drumbeat.

And, you have shown that the Mac's "dry weight" numbers vs the testing numbers seem out of wack also. If both are "lying", then both must be treated equally as liars.

It is POSSIBLE to get the Evo weight. If it is POSSIBLE, then it is not a cheat. It's just made in a way to show that particular configuration.

You want to continue to defend this "cheating" avenue. To me, it's a losing game because you still can't get over all the testers choising the Italia the better car to drive, irreguardless of weight.

Isn't that the biggest point here? Isn't that the point we've all been saying since day one of the 12C's introduction? We don't care about track times.

We care about how the car drives in the real world.

 

Depreciation cannot be worse than the scud. I got murdered on that. Insurance is not known at this stage, but it cannot differ much.

I might still go for the Mac, as long as I can get over my inability to dump on you guys . I need to see some independent tests, where it's not running behind a convertible.

 

No one doubts that there are various aspects of the 12C that make it desirable and "better than Ferrari".

And, I hope they shin a flashlight on certain practices -- such as parts replacement. We agree on that. As I said, competition is good for the breed.

But, we are not hear to discuss the advantages to the industry that the 12C brings. We are here to discuss the performance of the machines tested.

 

It's both Miller for me, so 2 miles from my house.

 

hey it's all in good fun i do apologize for bad attitude earlier.

Do you live closer to a trusted, respected Ferrari mechanic, or a trusted, respected McLaren mechanic? I'll tell you right now, that might be the BIGGEST issue for me!

 

It's off subject but I believe the Mac will not depreciate much IF there is a long wait for the car in 2 years. If the wait is short or immediate, look for big discounts.

It's always supply and demand that drives prices.

And yes, all 360 and F430 models have taken it on the chin in the past 2 years. We agree to that also.

 

What decision are you most likely to regret ... in a year? The 458 is more of a "known" quantity right now, so you can get lots of feedback from 1-year owners. The 12C is more unknown ... can you wait a couple months until cars are in the hands of other enthusiasts, just to see what real-world ownership is like, to mitigate your "risk of regret"?

 

I agree with this also.

If it were not that there is a good Ferrari dealership in LV, most likely I would not be driving one. I cannot imagine what people do with when their cars have problems and the dealer is 100's of miles away.

 

Ok, it is possible if you don't use the industry practices of reporting either curb weights or dry weights. Again, explain the R&T results to me, then.

The reported curb weight by EVO is exactly (and a bit uncannily) 1434 kg, the same CURB weight, they quote in their specs.

No, I totally discount Italia's times and don't pay any attention to them. McLaren failed since it cannot run with a Lambo cab.

 

Well, I am also a bit bored with Ferrari and I have my Maserati for aural pleasure, so that plays a role. The biggest thing for me now, is to drive it and see what the steering feel is like. That matters a lot to me.

 

i know i've been derailing the thread a bit, but it's in the spirit of helping to guide an actual purchase decision away from small differences in track performance I know what sells magazine copy ... but maybe real, money-on-the-line purchase decisions should consider a bunch of other factors to be of equal, even greater, significance

 

alright ... let's get right down to it.

Do you have a wife, or significant other, who will participate in the enjoyment (or sorrow) of your decision? Pretty big factor, right there perhaps none bigger. Last thing you want to live with is "told ya so's" ... LOL

 

Same preferences.

 

Same as Wynn Penke for me -- about 1 mile. It does make a difference. Even in LA it can be a hassle to be too far away from the dealer. Exotics are exotics --- the are tempermental and do need specialized people to work on some aspects. You can't take your 12C to Pep Boys for their 12 point brake inspection.

With a car as complicated and sophisticated as the 12C, it would scare me to death to own one in LV with the nearest dealer 400 miles away.

 

PERFECT. You're an extraordinarily lucky man. I have your solution.

Tell HER to pick then you can blame her when/if things go wrong.

It's priceless, i tell ya ...

 

LOL

 

I go back to what I said maybe 20 pages ago.

Buy the 12 C and enjoy it. If it isn't your cup of tea, I'm sure you can sell it to someone in a year and move to something else.


It's going to be a great car. There is no doubt about that.

It's not the second coming of "the fabeled McLaren F1" but nothing has been since the F1 was first created.

The F1 stands out still as the peak halmark of sports car design. I don't know how it can be topped because it's not the numbers that matter. It's the shear boldness of their engineering prowess for their time that will always make it special -- like how Dusengberg and classic Bugatti's are so respected today.

If McLaren only ever produced the F1 for the pubic, it would go down as one of the great sports car producing companies in the world.


Oh, and you can copy and paste this in Mac Life to show that we aren't all pretty boy hairdressers who only buy them because they sound nice.

 

I am starting to consider a Lambo cab .

 

So, you ARE a hairdresser then!

 

Bingo!

 

Oh thank god. I finally found that sense of humor I've been looking for all these months!


Oh, BTW: Ferrari lies about their official Curb weights. Did you know?

 

I did. Did you?

 

A 458 without carbon fiber options, without racing seats and without 20’ inch forged trim and full tank can pass over 1600 kg of weight (your swiss example)
All that options that I told you can reduce weight of about 60 kg. In fact all press car are in this configuration
EVO (DP544TV) 1546 Kg
Sport Auto (DP544TV) 1540 Kg
AMS (DP544TV) 1544 Kg
Quattroruote (DP544TV) = 1633 Kg (2/3 tank + 110 Kg (pilot + instruments)) = 1543 Kg Curb weight
Auto (ITA) (DP543TV) = 1528 Kg (2/3 tank) = 1548 Kg Curb weight
This means the car have a kerb weight without fuel of about 1480-1485 Kg that is the data you see in every 458 brochure. This weight is as delivered to customer (with few kg of fuel) so not exactly a kerb weight (Astuteness, I'm italian ...)
The dry weight is not 1380 Kg ? It’s not the first time that Ferrari declared optimistic dry weight. F40 was give at 1100 kg, Enzo at 1265 Kg, 430 Scuderia at 1250 Kg.
R&T track measured a curb weight of 1583 Kg (3490lb). US 458 are heavier because differents homologation laws so they have added part to make chassis more resistant to crash.
All US Ferrari are heavier from to F40 (more than 110 Kg) to 360 (70 kg). And Ferrari refers with a * on kerb weight referring to European Market version.
F430 example here
http://www.ferraridatabase.com/The_Cars/2004/F430/1/Technical%20Specifications%20F430.pdf
So resuming.
Press car test have a kerb weight of about 1540 kg.
Evo issue 148 and Sport Auto tested the same car
New Evo test reported a Curb Weight of 1469 Kg. I suppose this is a weight without fuel because you can have some tolerance in production that can explain + 1%. Pilot SS weight less than a PS2 for an overall gain of about 2,5-3Kg.
If not there is something WRONG

 

DAMN!! Slow down guys - I have 30 pages to read before I join the discussion.

Krzys - I am impressed you can hold your own against all the Tifosi. But I think it is futile. You might want to stick the to the Brit section or ML.com .

Personally - I am surprised and yet disappointed that the MP4 wasn't faster than the F458. With all the hoopla from Ron Dennis about the MP4 being a game changer you would think it would atleast be faster than a F458!! However the fact that it was faster than a GT2RS with MPSC is quite impressive to me. 0-124 MPH faster than a GT2 RS and F458 is quite impresive.

Finally - much to my dismay - I don't like the front end of the F458 and personally think the interior is bizarre!

I am going to go pick up the mags today. Should be a great read.

Ritesh.

 

I have not seen any magazine use curb weight definition w/o fuel. There is no point for EVO to SWITCH definitions and not report it. On top of that, the McLaren EVO weight is (kinda strange) exactly at their 1434 kg, which they quote as the (DIN) curb weight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight

As to US cars, yes I used to think that US cars are heavier (and they probably are), BUT in their Manhattan Ferrari showroom they do quote 3042 lbs as dry weight (w/o an asterisk). I will take a picture if you don't believe me, next time I am in the city (I live 30 miles north).

Speaking the scud and USvs European weights: whatever the dry weight was, the curb weights were pretty much identical: Autocar reported a curb weight of 1405 kg, while independent US measurements (on this very forum, there was a thread dedicated to weighing cars), was within a couple pounds of that CURB weight.