458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

Car's Verdict

"You have to feel sorry for Mclaren - the hydraulic leak in the suspension that caused the 12C to be so much slower than the 458 was unfortunate. Still, a lap time is only one element of what decides our final ranking, and this misstep doesn't alter our verdict, as the car we drove on the road - where, ulimately, it matters most - was perfectly represensentative.

.....

There are all sorts of ways in which McLaren best Ferrari, particularly composure through fast turns, ride quality and outright speed.

Yet the 12C's all round polish can't compensate for the fact that the Ferrari is the more engaging, more interactive, more compeling machine to drive hard, and if your supercar is going to tick any box, it's agood idea to prioritise that over everything else.

The Ferrari lifts your spirits in the way the McLaren can't, and, you know what, a 458 isn't such a chore to live with. We'd never have predicted but.... Ferrari beats McLaren".

 

I just read the articles. The quote test weight of 1433 for McLaren and 1469 for Ferrari. They also quote kerb weights of 1434 for McLaren and 1485 for Ferrari.


My biggest concern with the review is the hesitant turn-in. Steering feel should be a major advantage for McLaren, since Italia does not have much.

 

Apologies, missed that. Ferrari now have lighter tyres and more carbon options fitted to the test car plus the lighter weight alcantara carpet so a weight of 11Kgs under their standard kerb weight with different options is hardly significant or unexplainable.

 

Uhh, the problem is that nobody has seen the 1485 kg car either. The lightest config independently measured was 1540 kg.

That obviously is not necessarily a problem here, since we do not know what test weight means. If we can trust the official claims of McLaren of 1434 kg kerb weight, then there is clearly a problem with Ferrari test weight. WE have to wait for independent measurements, though. It's amazing to me that british mags do not consistenly weigh the cars, it's one problem the US mags don't have. They are pretty religious about it.

 

Why do you keep saying the same BS over and over.

Here it is again:

http://www.zercustoms.com/news/Ferrari-458-Italia-200-kg-Heavier-Than-Official-Weight.html

A Swiss magazine has announced that it they measured the weight of the Ferrari 458 Italia and observed that the car is around 200 kg heavier than the official figures. According to them, the Ferrari 458 Italia weighs 1598 kg, while the announced dry weight is 1380 kg. However, the Ferrari 458 Italia had its tank full at the time of the journalists measured it.

1598 (3523lbs) with a fully optioned 458 WITH a full tank of gas.

Gas we know weighs 6.1 pounds per US gallon. The 458 holds 22 gallons of fuel.

22 times 6.1 is 134 lbs.

3523 minus 134 lbs is 3389 lbs versus your 3395.

So, its less. And, as I have shown in the PHOTOS from the Swiss test, this included every option including fully electric seats and no CF accessories. It was not set up for lightness/sportyness but for analyzing it's GT qualities.

Please stop this ridiculous claim that there has never been a test this light before. There has and it's completely reasonable that the car's weight can be lowered even more by simply using or deleting options specifically to reduce weight.

Lastly, what US mags have ever "religiously" done ANY article correctly before? Are you talking about the same ones who voted the Chrysler K car and the Renault Alliance "Cars of the Year"? US mags are the worst when it comes to getting it right. That's why we pay so much attention to publications like Evo and Autoroute.

The US testers know less about the technical parts of cars than your gardener.

 

Again, I always refer to curb weight or dry weight. Weights with different fuel/fluid levels can be all over the place, so they are not worth comparing.

Again, nobody has seen a Italia with 1485 KERB weight.

US mags do ONE thing correctly: they measure weights consistently and independently. They have been exposing mfrs' claims for BS it is for a long time now. It's not just Ferrari, look at actual curb weights of Lambos as measured by R&T.

 

You are not talking a moron, ok?

You weigh a car. You take out the weight of the fuel and you get... TA DA! The weight of the car you are testing!!!!

And, guess what... it's LESS than the weight YOU keep saying have never been tested before.

Geez this is getting stupid. It's called MATH. Get a calculator!!!

 

Which issue of Evo and Car has the 458-MP4-12 reviews?

 

July issue of Car and issue 159 of EVO.

 

Well it is not that simple. Ideally I would like to see each car with Full fluids(washer/coolant/Oil/Fuel). Most importanly with a full tank of gas without a driver. That ot me is the actual weight of the car. Listing "curb weight", dry weight etc is just marketing BS. It isn't like you can drive a car without coolant/fuel etc! If you see Bill S's thread in the supercar section. You will actual weights of customer cars with a full tank of gas. That data IMHO is invaluable and quite accurate.

Finally - I don't care how you spin it - IMHO the 1st Match between Ferrari F458 Vs. MP4 clearly goes to Ferrari. I don't really care about McLaren's B.S. excuses. The fact that they couldn't provide a reliable car is probably EVEN worse than the fact that their car couldn't beat a F458 around the track.

Btw - I have a deposit on a MP4 so clearly I should be defensive about the results. However I can't. I think Ron Dennis needs to explain How the F**K his car is suck a poor preformer when he claimed that his cars was the best sports in the world EVER! What a bunch of B.S. marketing hype!! I would say based on the 1st set of reviews the car is still a prototype and needs much more work/R&D! Suspension failure - W T F !!(shakes head)

Ritesh.

 

Thanks...June Car is still on the stands at my BN here in NYC and 158 Evo

 

No, it IS that simple.

Kyrzs keeps saying that "NO CAR has been seen weighing less than 1485 KG".

I showed him a test that proved that the car CAN weigh less than 1485 simply by taking out the weight of the fuel from the FULLY OPTIONED and FULLY FUELED 458 of a well respected independant Swiss car magazine article.

I take out ONLY the fuel and voila'! The car weighs less than 1485. Now, take out the other option gear that is SEEN IN THE PHOTOS of the fully fueled car and it gets lower -- to within about 50 lbs approximately of the Evo test weight.

Why take out the fuel? Simple. This is about "Ferrari cheating" again. When they test mulitple cars, they do it with minimal fuel and EQUAL fuel across the board. It makes no sense to test the 458 fully loaded and the Lambo with 2 gallons. So, they use the minimum fuel necessary to do the specific tests.

If Evo tested the car at a specific weight, there is more compelling evidence that the weight is correct than there is evidence that the weight is "cheated".

I'm not trying to prove the 458's actual weight. I'm showing that this nonsense that "no one has seen a weight this low before" is rubbish.

I could give a high hoot what the "curb" weight is. It's not important. What's important is that one of us keeps yelling "cheat" when there is very good evidence that it's not.

 

Agreed and perhaps while they're at it, they can re-design the outside and get rid of the fish mouth. People would be much more likely to accept the 12C if it was more aesthetically attractive.

 

I would be very surprised if the numbers were true; I think this is pure BS.

 

I do not fault your permise or logic, but submit the discussion-differences in view points have to do wiwth "priorities". Fact may be lighter weight and speed McClaren and to those for which this matters, your points must be conceded. On the other hand, it appears the majority of drivers do not drive cars "at speed", primarily using them on the street and enjoy the sound and appearance. Two people with different objectives can amicably disagree. No need for any of us to get "into the weeds" on this issue. When we get down to weight/hp, I bet you 99% of the people on this forum have never driven their Ferrari's nor will they drive a McClaren 8/10ths, let alone 9/10's or better. As a result they will never "feel" or "experience" the "outer limits" of either car and live in "blissful ignorance". Best

 

Wow! I've been away driving my car and have missed this thread. I am in the home theater business which is all about specs on a sheet of paper. I have self informed clients asking me why we chose one product over another? On paper what we chose may not be as good. My job is to know what the best possible product is for a given scenario. Some aesthetics, some performance.. You get my drift. It's curious how a hi end 50 watt amp will destroy a 200 watt inferior amp.

My dealer offered me a mp4. I took some time to go see it and kindly passed. I just don't like it visually. On paper it may be a better car than the 458. But 90% of the time I drive my cars I'm not racing. The 458 is gorgeous. It sounds amazing and is so capable. I will be the first one to say the 12c is going to be an awesome car but the 458 is fantastic and the better driver in either car will win! Great thing about this rivalry is that it breeds incredible cars!

Rb

 

there's a joke in the middle of all that

 

You have easily one of the nicest 458's out there...and i'd be doing the exact same thing...DRIVING it per the discussion, it has been revealed that the only 'on paper' superiority that translated to real world was straight line speed. No surprise there. however, it's the over-hyped, much promised track performance superiority, ie 'handling' that has been shredded. the 458 wins there, AND it wins in the drivers minds and hearts.

as an aside..not really home theater-centric products, but i'm a huge fan of Wilson Benesch speakers. tech in a MP4-12C pales compared to those things and i love the way they sound!

 

Try Zinio.com I think they are both available there

 

I am saying there is no car with curb weight this low. that's all. If you take the wheels off and engine out, I am pretty sure, Italia can get below 1000 kg. Wanna discuss that in detail, too? Just to practice, your arithmetic?

 

Ummm.... no, that's not what you've been saying.

What you've been saying is that there has never been a test at this weight this low and therefore the 458 and the test was RIGGED. And, that Evo must have known it was rigged because the evidence is so "obvious".

What I showed is that it is possible for the test car to be at that weight using INDEPENDANT test results and comparing the weight of the two cars.

So, as I can SHOW that it's possible and you can only speculate, I suggest that I've won this argument and we can put it to bed.

Was the 458 configured to minimize it's weight? Yes. Was it cheating? As far as I can see, NO.

 

EVO's video of their test

http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/supercarvideos/269242/video_mclaren_mp412c_vs_ferrari_458_italia_vs_noble_m600_vs_porsche_911_turbo_s.html

Looks like the Ferrari is much more efficient in putting it's power down, it's still on the ragged edge though! :O I think the advantage is in part due to that e-diff in the back. AXIS said that the Scud's e-diff was the best diff they had ever experienced, I'm sure this one is even better. Really interesting comments by Roger about all the cars characteristics

 

I think it's pretty clear from all the tests that the Mac wins the acceleration tests but is just a bit slower on the track tests.

To me, it's nothing. All of the cars in this video are wonderful. The Nobel really impresses me though-- it is "a man's man" car. You don't see them in the US so it's great to see them going against the three biggest boys on the planet and showing it's stuff.

 

Noble has come a long way, they are definitely trying to kick the kit car stigma, I think they are doing an excellent job

Kryz, I think you might just be best off sticking with the Scud. Was it the cost of the CCBs that were throwing you off or was there more to it. Here's a comparo done about a year ago by AXIS, they adore the Scud, especially that diff! I think it will definitely dispel the customer car myths too, this Ferrari was at the top of it's game and not a press car of any sort.

http://axisofoversteer.blogspot.com/2010/10/axis-of-power-porsche-997-gt2-vs.html

 

This is the thing I think many people do not understand between the 360 and the F430. The e-diff and the new engine takes something that doesn't on the surface seem much different but in effect makes the cars night and day.

And, I felt the same step with the 458 and it's gearbox solution from the F430.