458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

Both Tiff and Jason agreed "Best engine - 458, best gearbox - 458, best breaks - 458, most fun - 458" and they both just didn't like the 12C. No doubt McLaren fans will say they are biased and in Ferrari's pocket. No sign of leaking hydraulics on this third different McLaren test car either. Ferrari supplied the same Rosso Fuocco UK press test car that both EVO and Car used.

A complete spanking from the Italian car on McLaren's "home" test circuit. Utter humiliation for a company who claimed their car was a game changer I'd suggest.

 

The look on their faces when they came in from driving the cars said volumes - huge grins after the 458, and some serious stony faces after the outing in the 12C. And they both spun the 12C, which is interesting giving how hard they were pushing both cars.

 

Is this episode posted anywhere? Youtube?

 

The interesting thing was when Tiff was power-sliding the McLaren. The electronics seemed to kick in to stop the slide and put him out of control - which he corrected to regain control - and then the electronics kicked in a second time and put the rear wing up, thus spearing him off the track. I've never seen Tiff completely lose a car like that, it was astonishing. He ended up several dozen feet from tarmac on the grass!

I wonder if there's going to be an aftermarket ECU reprogram for the McLaren that will turn off or dial back various electronic aids for those with the skill to drive the car without them. I'm sure that the average driver who just wants a sleek, fast car will get the benefit of these systems - particularly when something unexpected happens on the road - but it seems as though they are counter-intuitive for those with serious car control skills.

I still prefer the aesthetics of the 12C over the 458, but I have to agree that in this head-to-head comparison on the same track, the Ferrari absolutely spanked the McLaren. Clearly, Maranello built a superior car.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Wooooh! Kryzs:

I'm not picking on you here but you have to see this

http://fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/other/tiff-in-the-mclaren-mp4-12c


For what is supposed to be the best handling car in the world, Tiff looks like he's fighting the car constantly --- and losing.

If I saw this and had an order in, I'd be concerned. This is just crazy!


Jason's thoughts "It's programmed to drive the way McLaren wants you to drive it"

http://fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/other/jason-in-the-mclaren-mp4-12c

 

There are clips here...

http://fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/other/mclaren-teaser

and the whole episode will pop up here in, I guess, about a week...

http://fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/full-episodes/

The only caveat is I'm not sure if those links work international.

 

The videos are on Fifth Gear's official website:

McLaren Teaser (i.e. Episode Trailer)

McLaren MP4-12C Track Test (vs. Ferrari 458 Italia) - TV EPISODE SEGMENT

Tiff in the Ferrari 458 Italia - WEB EXCLUSIVE

Jason in the Ferrari 458 Italia - WEB EXCLUSIVE

Tiff in the McLaren MP4-12C - WEB EXCLUSIVE

Jason in the McLaren MP4-12C - WEB EXCLUSIVE​

Enjoy!

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Jason on the 12c:

"Genuinely, genuinely... disappointed".

I'm in total shock.


Only 1/10 slower than the Italia (which is nothing) but the lack of "fun" and driving comfort in the 12c is the most interesting.

Is it that radical brake steering that's messing with them?

 

Apologies. I meant to say it was a tenth of a second slower. Not a huge amount by any standard but significant when this is the track the car was honed on as it's local home development circuit.

 

further comments from Jason on the 12C :

"numb in my hands ..."

"... turbo lag"

"unstable in braking ..."

jeez McLaren should know, as well as any company, that there's more ... LOTS more ... to making a good track car (let alone a good road/track car) than monster power on a lightweight chassis.

The damn thing looks positively unstable when pushed on the track !!

 

We just intercepted a tweet from Ron Dennis to the head of his engineering staff:

"I've learned my lesson: More HP, lighter weight, and more technology do not a better sports car make. Also, tell the marketing department next time to not over hyping our car!"

 

maybe instead of all the time spent over-hyping, somebody at McLaren should have actually driven a 458. I'm sure they weighed one and probably put one on the chassis dyno ... measured the wheelbase ... analyzed the atomic structure of the materials used ... etc.

But did anyone at McLaren actually bother to ... ya know ... drive one?

 

Watch it here http://fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/supercars/mclaren-mp4-12c-track-test

 

They've had one for the best part of a year. Here it is shadowing a 12C test car.
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I really believe that this car is molded in Ron Dennis' image. He's looking at himself and his drivers and thinking that winning means "going faster".

Well, that's not what "winning" means to the average 55 year old guy who will buy these things and drive them on the weekends.

We've been saying for over 2 years that "going faster" is neat but not really that important. Driving experience should trump that as aesthetics should trump aerodynamics.

McLaren is new at this game. I think they are learning. But, they are fast learners and we have not heard the last of them. Personally, I think they are one year away from making something "great" instead of just "good". Clearly, they need a different point of view in their engineering team when it comes to driver feedback and performance feel.

However, if I had an order in -- and I'm being really serious here-- and I was told that the reason for buying it was that it was going to be the best in the world, I would have doubts now. I'd postpone my order until they got it straighted out.

The Mac does not have the looks (I think almost everyone agrees here) it doesn't have the sound, and now it seems to have some pretty strange handling in the corners.

So, aside from just wanting to buy something from McLaren or to be different or buy something British instead of Italian, what's the point?


As a side note: Remember that idiot a few weeks ago who drove his 458 down Molhaland Drive in and out of traffic? Can you imagine the damage that guy could cause in this monster with the handling that Tiff found?

 

dude i'm actually having a daytime nightmare imagining Lewis Hamilton driving one in some future GT race ... OMG !!! Lock the doors! Protect the wife and kids !!!! LOL

McLaren will no doubt go back to the drawing board, and fix their many, many problems with this car. But the clock is ticking ... Ferrari ain't standing still tik tok, tik tok ...

 

I'm not the only one in shock over 5th Gear's testers comments:
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+1. Even in the lairy XJR-15 he seemed to enjoy the lack of handling.

Wow - I never would have guessed that these talented guys would be so intimidated by the car.


Onno

 

the thing is, that the electronics seem to be doing all the screw ups, I bet the bloody thing will get a firmware upgrade, and do better.
I am a ferrari fan, but I never expected the 458 to be better, I mean a 600+hp tubo engine with masive torque and a carbon fiber shell should have smoked the 458. I am happy. although I think a update for the mclaren will come out shourtly that will fix the handeling issues, but by then a 458 scuderia will be out and the MC wont stand a chance.

wheather a update comes out or not it doesent matter since the damage to the company is done, they will certanly sell a lot less then they've planed.

P.S.
a tip to the McLaren stock holders. SELL SELL SELL

 

Wow thats a little disappointing to hear what they had to say......i would've hoped both cars would be equally as amazing in all aspects.

 

Yes, I'm sure software upgrades can help. But, there are some fundimental differences between the two cars that may be less easy to "dial out".

One is the turbo engine. For the first time, the 5th Gear testers noted that the turbo hurt the performance or experience.

Second is the brake steer. This is McLaren's solution to getting the most out of high speed turns. However, as seen from the video, brake steer can have some negative attributes in unusual circumstances.

Third is the trick hydraulic suspension. Maybe software can help and maybe it can't. Maybe when you correct one problem, you get another. Theoretically it should be better --- but is it really in real life? McLaren blamed the poor Evo test results on this issue. Was it? And, if so, what does that mean for some guy in Iowa who owns one 10 years from now?

 

These talented guys say that they don't know (out of the box) how to drive this car to unleash its potential. That is very worrying to me. It seems a summary of the McLaren's character. It's not that it's a bad or slow car - not at all - it just seems to require a reprogramming of the driver to get the best out of it. I think that's a poor design philosophy. The car needs to fit the human, not the other way around. McLaren can say that everyone just needs to adapt to the car and then it will be fine, but that is not the way the world works. The status quo is there for a reason. Ferrari made a similar mistake with the indicators on the 458 - ultimately they're irritating. But that problem is not very serious. Re-inventing the way a car behaves on the limit and throwing up surprises for very experienced drivers seems a bigger mistake to me.

It was very interesting to see the McLaren at the limit on video - you can learn so much more there than from a magazine. Well done to Fifth Gear on the amazing shots and conveying a sense of what it's like to drive these cars on the limit.


Onno

 

I think it is both more and less than that. If you "fix" your driving style, by letting the car understeer on (fast) corner entry, turning hard in and getting on the power, the brake steer will power you very quickly through (and you will not come off boost). This is the essence of what Autocar review discovered. Also, if you look at the videos of Jensen from Portimao, the car seems serenely attuned to his driving style: no fighting, no squirm, little oversteer. The small problem with this idea is that if neither the Stig nor Jason can do it, and we only require the style and skills of Jenson to be effective, it might be asking slightly too much of a casual driver.

 

You know it may sound silly but the Portimao test cars were test cars. I'm not suggesting "ringer" at all but with a car this on the edge, maybe some small differences in production have had unforseen consequences.

I have to say all this is pretty shocking. I saw the initial Portugal tests also and the car seemed to handle like a champ. When you see the video of Jenson and Hamilton driving them, they seem to be having a ball.

But, Tiff's ride makes it look almost undriveable. The difference is night and day.

 

Before anyone else says it.....Maybe Tiff was paid off by ferrari to drive the MP4 like a total **** and make it seem undriveable.


lol tin foil hats, the satellites are listening