458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

I think it's very easy to carried with arguing over who was cheating and by how much. All I can say is that nothing felt untoward on the day and all the cars were left in our hands for the entire duration of the test from the Monday through to the lap timing on the Friday evening.
The 458 was dropped off at my house on the Thursday evening having been driven back from Wales by photographer, Chris Rutter. I then drove it to Bruntingthorpe and from there to Bedford, meanwhile the McLaren was driven to the locations by Nick after Henry dropped it off at the office.
There was no secret fettling, in fact I got the feeling that Ferrari were going to extra lengths to ensure we knew their hands were off. After recording the lap time one of the Ferrari guys said: 'You did the time, not us.'
Shortly after the end of the test one of the McLaren engineers also had a word: 'If you want to go faster give me half an hour with the car and I can sort it, but this is the customer spec.'
It should be noted that as all the cars were tested environments without changes, so a car set up for the track would in all probability have felt uncompromisingly stiff in Wales. All the tyres still had plenty of life in them after the laps were complete.
If you look at where the Ferrari gained an advantage, and you suspected foul play then you would have to assume it came from suspension or tyre modifications. The evidence says neither took place.

 

^ Obviously, Green is afraid of Ferrari and is lying.

I really can't believe the guys at Mclife who continue with this ridiculous idea.

If you're lurking from Mclife, here's a note:

Instead of being mad at Ferrari for what you call "cheating" (albeit without ANY proof), you should be upset with McLaren for not bringing their A game to the tests.

It couldn't beat the Porsche and it couldn't beat the Lambo spider. Not one reviewer in all the tests picked it superior to the 458. Yes, the 12C accelerates better and may brake better, but this is not a contest of parts. It's the car with the best overall characteristics that wins sales. AND, don't be fooled -- these tests are ALL ABOUT SALES. That's why they are so important.

You guys scoffed when we said that the Mac wasn't very attractive. "Who cares!" you said.... It's "all about performance". The Italia is for "pretty boys" and "boulevard cruisers". When the 12c laps the 458, then you'll see who has the last laugh. That's all we heard for months -- insults upon insults -- while we admired the 12c and thanked McLaren for helping to advance the game.

So, stop bad mouthing the "Fiat" you don't like and start asking yourself: Just where did that 5 years of vaunted McLaren development and 1 million test miles go?

We don't bad mouth the Mac. It's time you guys grew up and start to question what's wrong with the car you were told was going to blow everyone away.

 

It's not so easy. Yes, McLaren failed big time, however it's gonna take some time/effort before Ferrari credibility is re-established. Yes, Ferrari is clearly trying to clean up its act. It seems pretty clear that Harris's accusations stung. Unfortunately for Ferrari, while preferring Italia in the current issue, he effectively repeats his accusations in the opinion pages of the current EVO issue.

 

I do agree with you on those issues. And, it APPEARS that Ferrari is trying to show that it's be hands off in these tests.

Yes, Harris stung them... and like I've said -- that's a GOOD thing. I don't like cheating. I don't like it from Ferrari or anyone. And, I don't like that the auto press has gone along with it for a nice trip to Italy and some good pasta. The auto reviewers have been corrupted too long (and the US guys are the WORST!).

Harris did shine a light on this. I wish he did it in a more professional way with a complete expose' of what manufacturers do, but it was in the end a step in the right direction.

 

I think again the credibility of the Bedford test is further strenghtened, along with any other test where fabulous numbers were achieved. I think it's also proof that there was no sense of laziness in the design/development/implementation of the 458. For all the hype that everything the McLaren utilized tech and otherwise was superior it sure isn't showing. It's a major major flop to create a car with more power, less weight, higher levels of tech, and still lose in every facet in comparison to the 458. Especially since the MP4 was delayed a year for further testing after the Italia was introduced almost two years ago!

 

It does strengthen their case without fully absolving them (now, it's guilty till proven innocent). I don't fully agree on the laziness angle, though. i know I have ridden this horse for a while, but weight and stiffness do count, just McLaren screwed it up but taking great fundamentals and trying to make a better GTR. Still, I admit, the distance is much smaller than I thought. I was wrong on that.

 

I've said this before but you've been a stand up guy through all this. Your opinion is important to this discussion.

I honestly wish the 12C did better in the tests -- or was at least split. And, I'm absolutely sure McLaren isn't happy and is working on correcting things.

But, if I were first on the list or had my car finished waiting for IRIS, I'd be concerned. I may not be concerned too much about the tests but I might worry about resale value. If they improve the car later, then who's going to want the first ones? Can you imagine some ham fisted amatuers spinning out at track days saying the cars are "undriveable"?

Like I said earlier, Maserati had that problem with the Quattroporte gearbox. The first ones were the testers and they stunk. Later, they made the change but it was too late -- resale went in the tubes and nobody wanted to buy a new one with used ones so cheap.

I'm not saying that's going to happen to McLaren but you have to wonder if it's on the minds of the ones currently being in production.

My guess also is that the US press will pretty much mirror the UK but be softer about it. They never say anything really bad about any new car. The Brits are far better at car reviews. The US guys just want to test cars and sell magazines with pretty cars on the cover.

I gave up on the US press years ago. I think many enthusiasts are with me.

But, these tests HAVE to hurt. The point of owning one was that it was going to be "best". It seems it isn't from what we've seen so far. And, even worse, I'm surprised the boys at Woking are being so silent about it.

 

Really disappointed. I thought McLaren could genuinely take the fight to Ferrari -- but it seems like they are still some ways away.

I hope they learn whatever lessons one can gain from this, and apply it to their next car.

 

Harris and his neverending b1tching disquised as not b1tching. he really needs to move on. "i like/love the car, but..." blah blah blah blah. "i'm so high and mighty by 'exposing' the supercar giant in a b1tchified way of ranting". car manufacturers have been known for years, for providing 'optimized' examples. but Harris was so noble, so brave, to sit atop his mountain top and shout that Ferrari does it to a whole nutha level...and do it in such an EPIC fashion. now...continued mumblings woven 'expertly' into new written pieces. i'm not impressed. give me a break.

back to the car comparo's. save for the turbo engine, right from the beginning, i loved the engineering, and hardware, and the potential of the MP4. today, in a nutshell, this:

"For all the hype that everything the McLaren utilized tech and otherwise was superior it sure isn't showing. It's a major major flop to create a car with more power, less weight, higher levels of tech, and still lose in every facet in comparison to the 458. Especially since the MP4 was delayed a year for further testing after the Italia was introduced almost two years ago!" Tifosi15

 

suggestion 1, ditch that 'bluuuuhp...bluuuuhhhh, bruuuughaaaaw' sounding turbo engine for a NA, high revving, flat plane V-8. suggestion 2, stop relying so heavily on math. instead, use real roads, real human beings. plenty of miles. suggestion 3, stop the hype, stop talking trash until car has been built to top standards. rant over.

 

That is an interesting point that has also surprised me about these tests. The 12 C really revs high but for some reason, it sounds a lot like a Shelby Mustang or the Ford gt to me. I don't hear that high pitch you would expect.

It's not a bad sound. It just doesn't have that high pitch howl of the Ferrari.

Let's face it, drama is a bit part of owning these things. McLaren knows that... just look at the screwy doors and door latches.

There's one other thing that was really striking in the 5th gear test. It was when they were looking at the cars at first. They pop the rear deck to inspect the engine and.... there's no engine. It's just a bunch of carbon fibre that they lovingly run their fingers over. I'm like.... where's the engine???? I know it's a jewel but I can't see it with all the plastic in the way!

McLaren... what were you thinking???

 

Here's a YouTube link to the review.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPtitpQDZhs&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]

I must say I feel almost vindicated after watching it. The McLaren is a technological marvel, but the parts just don't come together very well.
The Italia is lust on wheels, automotive perfection. Also, Rosso Fuoco is stunning, it needs to become the new Rosso Corsa in terms of popularity.

 

That's actually the strength of the car: it is small and very low, so it is hard to see.

 

i love the way the 12C GT3 race car looks, but even that cars engine disappoints me. however, a 12C with that GT3 design, and this engine sound (ok maybe not THAT loud but you get the idea)....to die for:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go6kxyKSDZ0[/ame]

 

No, I understand that. But, why the plastic covering everything? It seems silly for a car that's supposed to be "honest" and light weight.

What's the point of having a glass cover that allows you to see some decorative pieces?
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I don't know how much more absolution you want. Roger had some clear evidence that the car wasn't "fettled" and even Harris has backtracked. That's sort of like Chilton backing Harris, except this has more concrete and purposeful evidence.

If Ferrari was lazy with the 458 then they must be aliens. The 458 has blasted the MP4 in every possible way (when has a car ever been so dominant in every category?) as a road car. On the track it has already proven itself and only bigger and greater things are expected from it. I fail to see where laziness fits in their. Laziness is designing a car that will only drive in the way it is programmed

 

I don't get those attacks on Harris. Whatever his personal motivation he did everybody a great service by exposing a disturbing practice and forcing people to be careful. We are all better off for it.

 

I'm honored good sir

 

I peed my pants!

But, the point is... humans respond to drama. A lot of the reason for owning an exotic is the fantasy of it. We like pretty things and nothing is going to stop us from that.

If we could, the jewelry industry would dry up dead tomorrow.

 

Roger said that the car was not fettled during their tests as in optimization for various conditions. He cannot know what's in the car. One suspicion he does dispense with is the tire story: a super sticky compound is unlikely to last over four days of trashing all over the place.

The laziness is not about McLAren. McLaren clearly did not know what they were doing. I still think the car is too heavy.

 

To each its own, though. I like the look of Mclaren especially in the volcanic colors. I think Italia, though pretty, is too soft/feminine looking. I loved the restrained menace of the scud.

 

If you remember, my ONLY issue with Harris was that he singled out one guy. Ok, maybe they were the worst offenders but I thought he blew it with an internet rant and very little actual evidence to back it up.

I'm not saying what he said was wrong or he was lying. I think he said it the wrong way. I think he blew a great chance to really open up the industry in general and not focus so much just on Ferrari.

You're right... some did attack him personally and that was wrong. But, I stand by my complaint against him that he appeared to be grand standing instead of really doing a great story about how the industry cheats.

 

I have not seen one in person yet. I may change my opinion once that happens.

For one thing, in the shots (and it may just be the camera angle), the 12 C looks a lot smaller than the Italia -- which I like. As usual, McLaren packaging shines.

 

1) Could we please stop the BS that naturally aspirated trumps turbo? The 288 GTO and the F40 are regarded as a couple of the greatest Ferraris of all time. Contrary to popular belief, turbocharging can sound good, listen to any F40 video for proof.

2) One of their prototypes racked up a million plus miles in testing

3) Agreed. I don't mind if they hype up the car, but I didn't like how they trash talked other manufacturers.

 

He keeps saying, though, that some are much worse than others. Have a look at his opinion page in the current Evo (it is available now on Zinio).

On top of that, after calling out so many people (mags), notice how careful the various mags are about the procedures and how willing they are to talk about them. We, as consumers, win.