458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

Actually there is more into what you are saying. Below are Nick Trott's words


Both McLaren and Ferrari had engineers present and both checked tyre pressures etc. but we noticed no other tweaking on the test. Roger will confirm this, but neither car behaved differently after each session - and you would expect to experience some difference if a laptop was plugged in and power/torque/gearshift speed was tweaked...

We requested that McLaren fit Corsas in order to see what difference in lap-time they deliver - after all you can option Corsas on the 12C (but not on the Noble or Ferrari). We were expecting a quicker lap-time - but as it says in the piece, the 458's dynamic characteristics suit Bedford particularly well.

We will absolutely test a customer McLaren at Bedford too, as and when customers take delivery and one of them is generous enough to allow us to thrash the life out of it!

n

 

Trash-talk is fine...as long as you back it up.

 

I would say that is yet more evidence toward the validity of Ferrari. The other side still has one story from one man and another simply agreeing yet not going into the issue.

 

There is more than that:
http://jalopnik.com/5783922/how-ferrari-responds

 

Harris definitely could have been a lot smarter about it.

In case any one missed it notice that McLaren thought about cheating in the EVO test. Quoting Roger Green:

"Shortly after the end of the test one of the McLaren engineers also had a word: 'If you want to go faster give me half an hour with the car and I can sort it, but this is the customer spec.'"

 

I'm convinced the Mac has a lot of "untapped" potential. Something tells me a few months from now, they will come back with something changed. They have that F1 mentality. Look at the early test of their F1 car this year. They are pretty smart guys for sure. They have tons of talent.

What would be interesting is if they decided to hold releasing ANY customer cars until the car is improved from a marketing point of view. They've already held them back for IRIS. Maybe being honest that the car isn't ready for prime time will actually do them some good instead of just shipping them out as is.

Maybe dealer reaction from customers will force them to at least acknowledge there are issues.

 

That's still fettling during the test.
Anyway, I love the final idea: borrow two customer cars (hey, I will volunteer mine), weigh them, test the hell out of them, and let the chips fall where they may. There is gonna be some natural randomness to the process, but I guarantee you that production tolerances for exotics will get ever tighter b/c of that. This is the way to go. No more press cars.

 

my problem with Harris and the fiasco that has ensued, is HOW he went about it...and how he continues to weasil it in everything that's written. i have a problem with his 'i've got the balls to say something' but didn't carry a big enough stick. the medium he chose, the lack of "i've got something to say and i'm going to say it via a M134 gun and not an airsoft".

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCnumxfr_YM[/ame]

 

This article is to say that Ferrari did not respond to Harris... Yeah, why would they need to? Who is Nick Wert? Jalopnik is always looking for a stir, you can't really claim they are a reputable source, in the same way you can't really go off what Top Gear said. They need to be taken with a grain of salt. Harris backtracking and Roger Green/Nick Trott I think are a lot more relevant as they were directly involved in the "issue"

 

Harris backtracking? where?

Here's the money quote:
"...At this month's Geneva Motor Show, Harris and I were both besieged with questions about the story. I've also now heard dozens of stories from other journalists who've experienced similar nonsense to that highlighted by Harris when engaging in instrumented tests with Ferrari press cars..."

 

BS? ok, fine, make me an engine that sounds as good as a F40. and STILL it would not provide the scream possible with a NA engine. for what I, myself, want, see that Lambo vid (and btw, an aside, no Ferrari race car can even touch that, short of a 90's F1 car .

racking up a million miles with a computer minded engineer is not the same thing as racking up a million miles with a 'human being' behind the wheel

hype and trash talk is the same thing. but just make sure you walk the walk when you step to the line.

 

Now that a lot of the emotion is gone, this has turned out to be a really interesting thread.

 

Both McLaren and Ferrari were changing tire pressures. That's perfectly reasonable as that is what the customer can do at a track day, and will do. Notice it was only McLaren that tried to change that actual setup of the car:

"There was no secret fettling, in fact I got the feeling that Ferrari were going to extra lengths to ensure we knew their hands were off. After recording the lap time one of the Ferrari guys said: 'You did the time, not us.' Shortly after the end of the test one of the McLaren engineers also had a word: 'If you want to go faster give me half an hour with the car and I can sort it, but this is the customer spec.'"

You're right that is a money quote that backs up the other side. There is no real evidence there. "I've also now heard dozens of stories from other journalists..." is so ambiguous it's almost comical. The money there is that there is no concrete evidence brought forth, merely ambiguous and poorly written words. Again, who is Nick Wert and what experience/qualifications does he have in the automotive world?

Okay I guess he didn't backtrack but he did confirm, as have two other journalists now (i.e. more than the accusing side), that the 458 in the EVO test was legit. Others on this forum have also proved that it's weight is legit, as have they proved that this car has been run in multiple tests and given the same data.

Now, with that concrete evidence we now see that the car that is completely legit is actually faster than other magazine tests, or as Harris would have us believe "ringers" because "EVO does not take part..." That would mean that the "ringers" were slower than the actual customer spec car, which I think you know is preposterous

 

The 12C is an inch or so smaller than the 458 and it looks about the same in person as it does in pictures. Not nearly as attractive as the 458, IMHO.

 

One inch is basically nothing.

 

Agree.

But let's be honest here: Do I really want a car that has to be reprogramed (really??) in order for it to handle better?

You mean it won't drive better if I drive it better? It has to have someone at Macca tell its computers to do certain things to make it drive better?

This would be, in my humble opinion, McLaren kicking McLaren while McLaren is down. The car already sucks--oh wait, we're McLaren, and we're gonna take what sucks about it (the silly amount of electronics) and inject some "better" suck into it. Oh, and it didn't suck at first (really), it just didn't have the suck-meter adjusted properly.

Pardon my cynicism.

Someone mentioned earlier how all the testers liked the 458's abilities as they came through when its electronic systems were off... That was clearly evidenced by Tiff's wonderful powerslides in the Fifth Gear video.

That means that...

Ferrari have it right already: "We'll give you the nannies if you wanna drive like F1 and not think at the same time, but you can turn them off and the car will still be brilliant when you are on your a-game." Like "putty in your hands," as Tiff put it.

McLaren have it wrong already, and want to make that fact more obvious by potentially resetting the car's computers: "We'll force the nannies on you, and the car will kill you if you turn them off/try to think over them. Huh? The nannies don't work like we thought? Oh, okay, we'll give you new nanny settings."

If McLaren starts tinkering with the car on a grand scale, it would be, from Ferrari's perspective, like watching a common sensical, politically incorrect smart person laugh at an idiotic, too-good-for-the-facts-of-human-nature obsessive-compulsive fanatic who insists on repeatedly banging his head against a wall.

One word, gentlemen:

FAIL.

And yes, I'm late to the thread, and yes, I think McLaren are brilliant. But the real world results we've witnessed of late are probably worst case scenario items for the Brits. Hence the fail.

 

Interesting perspective. At the moment, Fail would be hard not to put on the tests so far.

The car was supposed to not only be the best but blow everything off the charts. It was supposed to bring new ideas and new engineering to provide breakthrough performance and handling.

I wonder if those claims have come back to haunt them. Is this just a great car but we expect so much more from it?

 

It is a fantastic car that plays second fiddle to the Ferrari. That was the very last thing McLaren wanted, all their hype has really tarnished what would have been considered a great "newcomer" supercar (though technically this is McLaren's third car).

 

I don't know if a car can still be considered great if it spat a very good driver out of a corner backwards and speared another very good driver off the track completely.

I wonder what it would be like if all the weird electronic things were disabled completely. Would Tiff and Jason have liked the natural handling of the car without them, as they did with the Ferrari? As they couldn't be completely disabled for that test, we don't really know. Tiff seemed to be sliding rather happily at first until the electronics kicked in and messed everything up for him.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

That's the thing though, the only way the diff can get the car sideways is through electronic intervention. That's why you could see the thing freak out mid corner, it didn't know what to do! I said this yesterday, the e-diff plays a major role in Ferrari's dominance in all categories

 

I think if they hadn't promoted it to such extremes, reviewers might have been kinder to it. But starting viral campaigns like "7:00 Nurburgring time" and "fastest around Top Gear test track" probably led to some very unrealistic expectations.

Alternately, they could figure out what settings they used for the cars in the Portimao circuit where all the journos gushed over it, and apply it to the production cars.

In any event, this makes the 458 Scuderia vs. MP4 "Scuderia" lightweight track variants battle a lot more interesting.

 

But seriously... why would you buy this car if it DIDN'T have outstanding speed and handling?

It's the only thing they have to offer people in the US market because few people could tell the difference between McLaren from Morgan here.

They intensionally did not care about looks. They've said this publically. They did not want to outdo Lamboghini in outrageousness or Ferrari in elegance. They wanted something more like a "real racecar" and honest. Honestly, they wanted to outdo BMW -- if no one told you, you would think this thing was designed in Germany than the UK.

Well, I agree with that idea of making a car with "real racecar" purpose, looks, and feel. There is a market for such a thing.

The problem is if the car doesn't deliver "real racecar" like handling and performance, there's not much else to love. You're left with either liking something different than the norm or liking something built from McLaren.

Sorry, for that amount of money, I think most want and expected more.

 

Well, while it seems to have speed, it most certainly has a handling problem.

Do you think that problem will cause it to do a little less well in showrooms than previously expected or will their sales figures tank catastrophically?

Those who have orders pending without even a test drive, I would guess, have already shown they're prepared to go for something different / from McLaren.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

I think it has to hurt. Maybe not for the faithful who have been waiting for all these months and even years but the real question is what comes after that.

I've said this many times before: What's important for McLaren's survival in the road car market is NOT the first year but the second and third. For sure, they can find 1000 people to buy it. Some will be speculators but a lot will be enthusiasts. But, when the novelty wears off, the car has to be better than the competition or sales will quickly dry up.

I would not be surprised if the dealers see at least some movement on some asking for deposits back or at least asking for more proof that the car is worthy of it's pedigree.

And, if some cars make it to the track days and they do to them what happened to Plato and Tiff, the word will get out real quick. If the cars are really that hard to drive unless drivers "change" their style and experience, then it would be a disaster.

McLaren can only survive in the long run if they are on top of the performance envelope. Anything less is just an also ran. That's not going to do it with so many good choices out there and still coming (from Lambo and Porsche). And, the Audi R10 looks like the bargain of the century!

 

They are supposedly sold out for the next 3 years

source: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/06/mclaren-mp4-12c-sold-out-for-the-next-three-years.html

No idea how / if this will change in the wake of these reviews.