458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

We heard that about the Callifornia also... I never believe this stuff. Several of us have bought Italia's lately with a few months wait. I think a lot of this is just hype.

It's one thing to get someone to say they want to buy it sight unseen. It's another to get them to plunk down a quarter million dollars when there are still questions out there.

 

True. But this is something all automakers do; like Lambo claiming the Aventador is sold out for the next couple of years, to Ferrari claiming the FF is sold out for the year, the California, Aston with the One-77, etc.

There's little more we can do other than take it at face value.

 

+1 (and I am a long term F1 fan)

You might as well get a GTR instead or if you need to go faster; one of those mod GTR with 1000BHP.

 

The same BS is always going on.
Krzys, you started from weight issue.
I have fully showed to you that also EVO mistakes as well explained in post #754
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=140614230&postcount=754
If there is few kilos less in comparison to first 458 test magazine is due to new personalization program available from January 2011 with new CF options.
So now that the great weight debate is over, it come ….. the super-sticky tires debate.
Seriously guy, you are sick. And technically incompetent.
You can not change rubber composite compound to make any kind of production tire softer and stickier because shoulder, sidewall and bead of the tire are not designed to work with lower rubber hardness. The results will be almost devastating, the tire contact patch will be complete different. A sport tire is 100% end of production line checked by machinery checking the tire uniformity under load and scrapping when out from specification (Safety reason).
A Pilot sport cup + have a quite different internal design in comparison to a michelin PS2 or pilot SS, because it works in a very different way.
More there is a legal issue. Michelin can not mould tires that have difference specifications compared to homologation values and markings. Any accident and/or injuries, you appear in court instantly also during magazine test on the road or in the track.
Last but no least could you bring to me some clear evidence ?
A stickier tire gives following advantage :
1) Acceleration improvement for more traction. Evidence ? NO, See acceleration data by EVO, Autoexpress and Autobild)
2) Lateral G improvement (so corner speed). Evidence ? NO see EVO chart ‘How Fast’ and Rockingham videos where is the GT2 RS to reach max g (1,29g) in first bend after main straight.
Roger green talks of the 458 lightining direction change that Mc laren couldn't match, <<most ot the time was lost the the ferrari in the transitional corner>>
458 instability is a ferrari handling specification that use a softer suspension set-up in comparison to Mp4. And this is the achilles heel of the tenneco kinetic system.
When you have to controll roll with liquid in pressure and have to change direction suddenly. See my post #619
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=140607284&postcount=619
I wonder If you like living in denial or what ?
I read in McLaren life forum you are still arouse your followers referring to Gumpert Apollo lap. ‘A 458 can not lap faster than a Gumpert ‘
Once again I invite you to think it trought. The 997 GT2 lap, tested in some period of the Gumpert, have been beaten by a 997 Turbo S in 2010 and no one of you have said the turbo S was a ringer with sticky tires.
Cheers

 

I am aware of three people on Fchat (two who are still on the board) who have ordered a 12C, I'm very curious to see if they will follow through with their orders.

 

Excellent post Luque. I'm also pretty sure the track at Bedford has had certain corners resurfaced since the Gumpert went around it. It's in a back issue of EVO somewhere that they mention this and say the new surface is faster.

 

Thanks for your input Luque, I love your insight that actually comes from the field. It's nice to have some inside knowledge.

I think, however, that Kryz was actually agreeing with you that the sticky tire theory has been dispelled.

 

There's something interesting going on.

We, the guys posting on Fchat and Mc chat are really into these things. We analyze every detail and try to figure out if someone was cheating or if the test was fair or find reasons why things went right or wrong.

But, the general public DOESN'T. They just see the headlines or the videos of the tests and go "Hmmmm... the McLaren's not as good as the Ferrari."

That has to hurt and it has to impact the brand somehow. What surprises me is how quiet McLaren is on all this.

Maybe they have an ace up their sleeve but right now, they are losing the PR battle big time.

If I were a dealer, I'd be pretty upset. I'd be asking why Ron is in Valencia instead of trying to figure out how to manage this crisis of confidence in the 12C. He walked away from the F1 team to concentrate on the marketing and production of the 12C. Geez man --- get to work.

 

I'd certainly be reconsidering if I had an order in. After all, this car was pre-sold on the promise that it would trounce everything (and in particular the 458) and move the game on. This is a promise that, quite clearly, has not been delivered. I find it hard to understand why anyone would go through with it now the reviews are in and are unanimous. It just remains for Top Gear to pass verdict for a probable clean sweep.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahsIOVx93zs&feature=player_embedded#at=372

 

I had a deposit in as of January this year but I cancelled the order and asked for a refund about a month ago, actually before these reviews came out. For me it was about the aesthetics just not being sexy enough, but obviously there are more issues here beyond the looks.

 

Did you decide to get something else instead or just keep what you have?

 

+1

 

So, emotion versus rationality?

So if you ask a Mac-owner why he bought the car, he will probably answer: because it is the best car.

And if you ask a 458-owner why he bought it, he will probably answer: because I simply love it.

That the 458 is in addition to that an insanely good car and an utterly enjoyable ride, is just a nice bonus.

 

I'd also like to see how it would stack up against the Aventador.

 

I would to. But, they are really not in the same class technically. But, the Aventador is one magnificent looking and exciting car. It's the first lambo that has gotten under my skin since the Countach.

 

What's funny is that was quoted before we found out the MP4 actually has less steering feel and overall communication to the driver. Tiff and Jason both said there was a "disconnection" between car and driver.

 

Yes, Lamborghini really do seem to have hit a sweet spot with the Aventador. I, too, am lusting like I haven't over a Lambo in a very long time.

 

Lotus thinks it has a better idea, trashes both the Mac and the 458:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/18/lotus-ceo-talks-smack-about-ferrari-458-mclaren-mp4-12c/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+weblogsinc%2Fautoblog+%28Autoblog%29

 

Ferrari has the 458, McLaren has the MP4 and what does Lotus have?

I hope Mr Bahar doesn`t ruin Lotus!

 

what the heck is a more "authentic" driving experience?

one straight from the 70's? or maybe the 50's?

what a tool

 

same. i was close to pushing the button but decided the cost benefit of buying in the first year of release had no upside...hence, i am on my second 458 now! glad i made the right choice...

 

I am awaiting me second 458 which should arrive in the next couple weeks! Grigio Titanio.

 

Wow that's awesome. Please post some pics when it comes in. I'm really curious about the interior choices on the non red cars.

 

In my head that goes back to the Mac decision to use brake steer over the 458s ediff.

I could be totally wrong here but I have never seen a new radical idea added to a car that didn't in some way effect the driving experience.

When you're talking about effecting the steering of a car, you're playing with fire that could make the car feel strange to the driver.

If that is the case, McLaren is screwed. That's more than some adjustments in suspension and software.

This car may be fundamentally flawed.

Look at Tiff's spin. It's on the OPPOSITE side of the turn. The sequence shows Tiff in a powerslide. Next, the car is nuetral. Immediately the rear snaps in the opposite direction. Tiff his the brakes and tries to reverse the spin. Finally, the car continues the spin in the weeds in the opposite direction of the curve.

From looking at the wheel positions, it's hard to see how Tiff made a mistake and rapidly caused the car to spin in the opposite direction of the curve. The front wheels don't show much more than bringing the car to nuetral.

If Tiff (who we all acknowledge to be an excellent drifter and test driver) can't hold the car in a powerslide without snap spinning in the OPPOSITE direction, then there's something here more than just skaking handling.
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