Mileage, Modifications, Accidents, Value | FerrariChat

Mileage, Modifications, Accidents, Value

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by Napolis, Jun 30, 2011.

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  1. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    After returning from the 24 Hours of Nurburgring I really started thinking about all of this.

    P 4/5 Competizione began as an F430 Scuderia.

    She obviously has been very heavily modified.

    Ferrari's lack of support has pissed me off so much I removed their nose badge.
    (They won't even sell us parts we've had to make our own)

    The Video of me removing their badge and putting our's on did receive quite a lot of views on youtube but that's not the point of this thread.

    In her first race she was involved in two crashes and a minor fire caused by overheating in the pits.

    In her second she did better finishing 9th OA penalized to 14th OA for missing a yellow flag.

    She was asked to Villa d'Este where in a huge downpour on race tires her windscreen misted solid as she sat in the parade and I kissed a stone wall crunching her spoiler.
    (Carbon is pretty tough and we've continually repaired all damage)

    In the 24 she was hit twice hard from behind. I guess other's had trouble understand just how late we could brake. This damage flattened a tire and we had to drive 8 miles back to the pit on the rim shredding some bodywork and one exhaust header and cooking the shift cable. We worked through the night and spent 3 hours in the pits. We went back out in 114 place and fought back to 39thOA 2in class beating several factory entries.

    She was battered and bruised and duct taped and in as finished condition she's spending a month in The National Auto Museum of Italy in Torino and then will either be converted into street legal condition and plow the roads of NY or be modified further (DRS/more HP) and return to The Ring next year.

    In 24 hours she went 2K+miles.

    Here's the question. There are F40's that are Pristine, unmodified, with fewer miles in 21 years than P 4/5 C drove in 21 hours. There is obviously enough people who want them like this to make their value higher than high mileage/modified/damaged and repaired F40's.
    I accept this is fact but I also think it's fair to say that P 4/5 C's modifications/mileage/damage and repair haven't negatively affected her value.

    Interesting World. If I had an F40 I would drive her, modify her a bit and if I damaged her repair her. I accept that other's wouldn't and don't and my F 40 might suffer value wise but I hope that those strolling the lawns of Pebble realise that cars that have been driven and raced look a bit different than some of the cars before their eyes on the lawn...
     
  2. UroTrash

    UroTrash Three Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Jan 20, 2004
    38,863
    Purgatory
    Full Name:
    Clifford Gunboat
    Of course race provenance increased the desirability. Even the dirt and bugs!
     
  3. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    But the question is why does NOT using an F 40 for 21 years increase it's value?

    There's no question it seems to.
     
  4. George330

    George330 Formula 3

    Oct 19, 2009
    1,342
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    George
    terrific post...

    I have owned more than 60 cars over the last 20 years, among which there were many low mileage rarities (eg. Lancia S4 with 780km on the clock). I have come to the conclusion that maintaining them in such pristine state gave me stress and took away much of the enjoyment of ownership. On the other hand I enjoyed and drove the hell out of all of the old warhorses with 80,000 miles on that I bought for next to nothing (compared to low milers of course). I remember those cars fondly...

    At the end of the day, car ownership is about memories and emotion. There is only so much memory and emotion that can be derived from watching your favourite car sitting in your living room.

    I am not saying that I don't respect people who prefer not to drive their cars and like to win concours awards in them. I can fully see their point, but I just don't share it

    My 288 now has 43,800kms and my 993 Turbo 117,500km! The Enzo is still very low mileage, but only because I don't keep at home in Switzerland!
     
  5. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    I think your point about "memory and emotion" is a very good one.
     
  6. peter5

    peter5 Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2005
    519
    NoVa
    #6 peter5, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
    Playing devil's advocate:
    Because when I was 10 and reading an article about an F40, I dreamed about being able to buy one brand new. A low mileage time-capsule example is the closest that I will ever be able to get to that fantasy.

    In reality: I would prefer a non-high mileage example that has been properly cared for, because I want to drive it.

    Counter-question: When building P4/5, why did you pay a premium (?) (or at least track down) the last remaining brand new Enzo?

    Peter
     
  7. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    #7 Napolis, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  8. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 30, 2006
    4,887
    Troy, Michigan
    Full Name:
    James
    #8 Veedub00, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
    I have a dream of buying an F40 one day and driving it everyday for one year! More of a stunt, but I really want to try it.

    Rick in Toledo with his California is probably doing it right.
     
  9. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
    BANNED Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 16, 2007
    6,546
    Edwardsville, IL
    Full Name:
    Jeff Kennedy
    Jim,

    It's a lot like the breadvan. The factory wasn't real thrilled with its existence in period.

    This is your car and therefore you choice to do as you wish. If you really want to stick it to some of the folks (especially the factory) then keep racing it and get a win or two. Provenance from wins out weigh low mileage.

    Jeff
     
  10. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    #10 Napolis, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
    In terms of the last new Enzo I paid a little premium at the time but as I was able to sell the Enzo parts we didn't need for a reansoable amount in the end my cost wasn't too bad.

    I also bought a new F 430 Scud for P 4/5 C but that one I paid 40K under msrp.

    I wanted to start with new cars as I wanted P 4/5 and P 4/5 C to start as new cars.

    Best
     
  11. bbs911

    bbs911 Formula Junior

    May 31, 2007
    590
    Dallas
    #11 bbs911, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
    Forgive me if I'm not correct, but is it perhaps because the F40 was built first as a street car? If so, I think people expect them to be in showroom condition, therefore, the fewer the miles, the more showroom it is. The car you built, was built first as a racecar and if you were to sell it, I don't think the value would be diminished at all because you'd expect on-track incidents. Hey, I think it's cool that it got hit during a race - I'd want to know what kind of car hit it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that IMHO it's about buyer's expectations and acceptance given what type of car it is.
     
  12. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    May 23, 2006
    57,292
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Joe Sackey
    Jim:

    What a fantastic post.

    And may I say Bravo to you for your competitive spirit, tenacity, and love of sports cars. I would love to shake your hand in Carmel again. You have become an icon, and the memories you have created for you and your family are priceless. As I say is P 4/5 Competizione. And here is why I think so:

    In the summer of 1998, I drove my F40 86640 every day. I mean, EVERY day. I logged about 2,800 miles that summer, not going anywhere in particular, mostly just running errands for my wife. I learned that these are tough little cars, that get incrementally better each time you use them regularly and fettle small things that need tending to. But then summer was over and I needed to get 2 kids to school so out came the sedan and the F40 languished again. For months. It reverted to its status as collectible low-mileage pristine road car, sparingly if ever used. I also learned that for most guys in the real world, family & business dictate that these cars cannot be used nearly as much as they'd like. Accordingly, they become viewed by most as collectibles, rather than driving machines, and this is where low-mileage/pristine/unmolested starts to gain value in their eyes. Once a group of people start thinking similarly (they do), the demand for examples that fit that bill far exceeds supply and this is why values for such cars are significantly more than a car with 45,000 miles and a new nose plus some 'stories'. Such a car might even run better than the low-mileage thing, but people want to pay less for it. That's just the way it is.

    The other thing to think about is the fact that you have competition cars, and these are quite different from road cars. F40s are essentially road cars. With competition cars, you EXPECT them to have a few crashes and some replaced components,. In fact the relevant stories only add to the car's battle-tested provenance and therefore to its appeal as a race car.

    I think you have some pretty priceless cars, and your journey in blazing your own trail and dealing with the likes of Ferrari is book-worthy. It must be done.

    There are many collectors whose efforts I applaud. But you, good sir, I stand back and salute.
     
  13. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Thanks!!!!!!!!!!

    I also think that your knowledge and first had appreciation of these Supercars is a very important asset for potential buyers and sellers and while auctions are sometimes a good place to buy a car unless you have as much experience as you do in these specific cars it's not always without peril buying a Ferrari Supercar for "less".
     
  14. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    May 23, 2006
    57,292
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Joe Sackey
    FWIW I sometimes work with David Gooding as far as auctions go, and I agree that for certain cars the auction can be the right venue.
     
  15. Qksilver

    Qksilver F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2005
    4,316
    Philadelphia
    Full Name:
    Joe
    Keep in mind that you're talking extremes, Jim.

    In your case, a bespoke Ferrari brings an inherent value that cannot be duplicated. The ability to produce your vision without inhibition is a luxury that most people cannot execute- whether it's due lack of time, imagination, or money.

    Your point of view is undisputably correct because it's yours. Nobody can tell you how to think. You say to yourself, "I did it, and look! My car might even be worth MORE now!" And it's true. The problem is most people either cannot commit to such an "experience" with no-strings attached. Seems to me the strings are always lack of time, imagination, or money.

    Couple that with rational purchasing pyschology- that people prefer the best example at x price, and you've got your answer. Garage queens are desirable because the majority does not prefer cars that are highly used by someone else; this means the people in the minority who are affected by lack of time, imagination, or money must adhere to the whim of the majority if they care about selling in the future.

    The rare few, who buy cars to drive, share your exact point of view- and they have time, creativity, and wealth. To them, the return is in the intangible experience, not the metal in the garage.

    In fact, you could probably profile prospective buyers without speaking to them by know the hours they work, job description, and net worth and predict their usage habits. It's a lifestyle thing.


    -Joe
     
  16. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Mar 25, 2002
    36,212
    houston/geneva
    Full Name:
    Ross
    i just got offered another f40 with 42k miles on the clock, at a 30% discount to the one i just bought last month with 12k miles on it, and i am seriously considering it since at some point they will all rise regardless of mileage, and in the meantime, i can put lots of miles and smiles on the already higher one without hesitating. i havent booked it yet, but its eating at me.
     
  17. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    If you look at 275 GTB's I think you'll find that you're right that at a certain point mileage means less but at that point recent restoration still does. The problem is that unless one does a LOT of continuous maintenance/semi restoration a full restoration becomes necessary and that can cost a LOT.

    Great seen U at the 24
     
  18. jhietter

    jhietter Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2009
    418
    California
    Full Name:
    John
    A "weathered" F40 will lose more value than a weathered P4/5 because there are other f40s out there. If an f40 is damaged and the owner wants people to consider their car, they must provide a discount or some incentive for buyers to choose a damaged car with potential issues over a sound car.
     
  19. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Owner Project Master

    May 10, 2006
    17,171
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    John!
    I can't stand low mileage cars. Give me a well-maintained loved and driven example with some miles over a pristine rarely touched beauty car. It's brand new jeans vs sort of old but used 'favorite' jeans which can no longer even be classified as jeans but rather as, "my favorite jeans ever so don't touch them or I'll punch you". The car becomes a part of you and defines you rather than something you must define to others. Mileage is just a number.

    Buying a car from an owner as the above is much more important IMO.
     
  20. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 29, 2007
    11,022
    Full Name:
    goodbye
    a case for preserving low-mileage cars ...

    As i see it, yes ... cars are meant for transportation, and, for the good ones, provide driving enjoyment as well. But a few rare, exceptional ones can even transcend that ... a few cars become "art".

    Why do we want them? For the transportation, the enjoyment (perhaps including racing), but also to "capture" a moment in time ... part of a legacy, a heritage. Maybe that moment we want to capture is a shunt on a particular circuit. But maybe, the moment we want to capture is the joy of experiencing the car when it was new, as delivered. We want to, perhaps, preserve that "new" moment ... and relish it as the best representation of the "art" that is the vehicle.

    Maybe silly, i know there's no going back. But i can put more miles on my car(s) anytime i want to :) i just can't take them off :(

    yeah ... i'm a fan of low-mileage cars (that are in good condition, of course, both cosmetically and mechanically) :) more on that later ;)
     
  21. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2004
    6,299
    Full Name:
    Ron
    #21 Challenge64, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
    I am eagerly waiting for your car to be revealed! Having known its previous owner and history, I am excited!

    Here is my take on it. Over the last 10 years I have owned several different 360s. I use(d) each car exactly how I wanted to use it. Here is a bit on 2 of them -

    1 - My 360 Challenge. I raced it for 2 years in the Ferrari Challenge Series including Mugello, Indy F1, and Montreal F1 twice. I blew an engine, a tranny, and then on the last race weekend of my 2 year stint, someone crashed into me - causing $85k in damages. I won one race, and placed 3rd twice. I used the car exactly how it should be used and loved it. By the time I sold it, it was "well used".


    2 - My Challenge Stradale. Still own it and love it. But the thing is, here is a street car based on a race car I used to own - and I hardly drive it. But honestly I am fine with that. I see it every day as I pack up the kids in the Escalade and I smile. Besides..what do I have to prove? I already raced one and crashed it. As far as I am concerned, I love my pristine low mile Stradale just as much as my old Challenge car.
     
  22. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,396
    Texas!
    Two questions:

    1. Were you in Montreal in 2004?

    2. Did you ever race against Steve Earle? If so, was he as good as seemed to be?

    Dale
     
  23. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

    Oct 2, 2004
    1,995
    I don't mind owning a damaged car. As long as I'm the one that repaired it.
     
  24. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2004
    6,299
    Full Name:
    Ron
    1 - no

    2 - yes, maybe

    He was pretty good, but thrown into a full time professional league he was just ok. Still a good driver (as he did win the series).
     
  25. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
    7,645
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    Erik
    Joe is a smart guy; everyone knows that. As such he pretty much covered the point I was going to make above. :)

    With a racing car you want some stories - they add character. The opposite seems true with a road car - most people want one that is unmolested by its previous owner/s either because of the perception of value of a car that is totally original or the idea that they'll be "her first".

    While it is a rare scenario, what I like are the people who pay a premium for an unused version of some special car and then proceed to drive the tires off it. :cool:

    ...and I love everything you've done Jim. :)

    >8^)
    ER
     

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