Buying a 308 without a PPI

Hello FerrariChat,
I am looking for your opinions and advice. I am interested in a particular ’85 QV Euro that has been owned by the same person for 10 years. The car is for sale to me (it is not advertised) and the CarFax on it is clean and shows him as the third owner with 31K on the odo. The car has failed emissions since 2003 and does not appear to have CATs and other emissions equipment. The DOT docs check out (with the DOT) and the car is straight and clean, but it has been sitting for a few years garaged under a cover and has a layer of dust on it. The owner says the car has a coolant leak, but that the car didn’t overheat. So the car is not currently in “running condition”.

We scheduled a PPI and a towing outfit to move it, but this owner travels often and couldn’t make it so I cancelled. I have a handshake deal with him pending the outcome of a PPI, but I am wondering if I should forego the PPI since he is probably too busy to go through the rigmarole of actually getting a PPI done. Before you censure me for that thought, know that I built a lot of room into the agreed upon price. Enough for a major plus water pump and brakes and other work if it needs it, so unless the motor is blown or the heads are warped, or the gearbox is toast, I think I’ll be okay without getting completely upside down in this thing. There are things about this deal that say “walk away”, but if all it needs is a major, some hoses, a water pump, and a good detailing, this will be a nice car at a nice price. The seller is also an acquaintance and I have seen the car running in years past.

I have searched this site for data and have read Birdman’s articles and other stuff and I have obviously sold myself on this little project, so I’m looking for some rational dialog here to either call me off the ledge or push me to close this deal. Is there anything obvious that I can look for that screams ENGINE BLOWN! Or HEADS WARPED! Without getting the PPI? I might be able to do a compression check on the four easy cylinders, but the back four might be a problem with the limited time I will have.

What am I not thinking about but should be? What would you do? What would you look for?

Thanks!
Glen

 

Just what I understand from people-a comp check may not be necessary most of the time. Yes, you have to drive the car and accelerate, etc, to check for pick up/acceleration, etc. You know. That should tell you- no comp problem. Start the car cold engine. Check underneath before and after running for a while for leakage. Let it get hot. Go for a ride.

Come back- keep it running/idleing for say, 10 more minutes. Ckeck for leaks unnderneath again. Check, check, check. Yes, its not like a pro in his shop with a lift and all- jjust what you have ability to do, of course. Is engine oozing oil? Is the temp guage getting too hot/high? Let it idle MORE.

Do what you can. Thats all. Bring a flash light with you too.......good luck, man.

 

stories like this always interest me -

thats great he has been the owner for the last 10 yrs, but why has he not used it ? let me guess, he is too busy he has a new venture -

the leak, would worry me from the angle that it could be a head gasket, or worse - if he has no records, that is a red flag , i woudl make sure a comrpession and leak down test was preformed first and foremost - then go from there.

PS - Dont forget, if its been sitting that long, do yourself a favor and buy 4 new tires before you decide to drive like MS

good luck !

 

If the car appears nice, clean and straight with a price below $15k then maybe it'll be worthwhile. IMO, a rusting body and/or a failed compression leak-down test would be a deal breaker for any price above that. If the car comes cheap and the motor fails not all may be lost (i.e. a parts car).

Have you had a chance to read this thread?

Why does a 308 engine rebuild cost so much?

 

A PPI is going to tell you about compression, brakes, shocks, etc on car you really WANT to buy. Its not to justify the purchase of one you have serious doubts about.

You don't need a PPI. You know everything you need to know. You have serious concerns and you want the PPI to prove you wrong. Walk away. Unless its an absolute steal and you could fix the ills and feel good.

 

If I didn't hear it running I wouldn't buy it unless it was a give a way. If it's the WP then you should be able to reach under it and "feel" the antifreeze. If it were a bad headgasket you will hear it when you start it up. I say put water in it and start it up. Look and listen and then make your decision. I'm bettin he's asking more then $25K for it so you'll only have a $5K buffer to keep it in the price range of other cars available. Oh I don't think you need a PPI if you have some auto knowledge. My 2 cents and good luck.

 

Sice you're in Dallas, call James at Norwood Performance and talk it over with him.

 

I did my own inspection on mine before buying. I also bought it from someone I can trust. If you are not an expert on these cars, take it to somebody that is. Or at least bring somebody with you that is before you buy. They are not cheap to fix. Even if you do the work yourself, parts are expensive. Like any old car, expect it will need something. I feel your best bet is to buy one for a guy that has taken car of the car for years. Not just 6 months or a year and now wants out of it.

 

All very good advice, as I thought it would be from this list!

I talked to the seller again today and he and I are going to put some coolant in it next weekend so I can hear it run, eyeball the engine and feel around for the leak.

DWPC - Well put! You hit the nail with the other side of the hammer. I was actually thinking a PPI would confirm my observations about what this car needs. So, my plan IS to fix all the ills and feel good!

Wade - I have been through that thread, very interesting. I think I need to memorize the cross-referenced parts list I saw somewhere on FerrariChat!

Big Red - Steve King's suggestions should reveal a bad head gasket, so as long as I can run the engine and it sounds right, I will be comfortable... You are absolutely correct about the tires (TRX, by the way) - I happen to have tires on my "cost of things to fix" list, which is a list I put together to make my offer. I started with a base market value based on data from Craigslist, ebay, FerrariChat, NADA and other resources, then subtracted my "Cost of things to fix" list...

Pippo - I need the luck, thanks!!

Thanks all!
-Glen

 

How bad is the coolant leak? If he needs to put coolant in it to run it, there could be something more wrong with it. Do yourself a favor and get a PPI.

Jim

 

If the engine has not run for years, I would not just fill coolant and try to start it. I'm sure that could do more harm than good, no?
I would at least shoot some WD40 or similar into all cilinders and let it soak. Then 1 day later carefully turnover the engine on the crank and make sure it's loose, as well as the waterpump. Make sure you have oil pressure cranking the starter before connecting the plugs to the coils again.....
Good luck!

 

Good points... It could do harm if not handled with a little care. A little Marvel Mystery Oil in each cylinder should do the trick.

http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/

 

if you can get this ferrari 308 for $10,000 or less in this condition buy it now
not 1 cent more or walk away right now,a blown head gasket sometimes dont surface
immediately,water gets into the engine looks MILKY, that is why you seriously need a
compression check,if the valves are leaking etc,dont end up with a engine to rebuild
you now know what it will cost,pay now or pay the bigger price later it's up to you

so you know the rest of the story. or you might put another $20,000 in this ferrari
for it to run right & still not sure, cheaper to spend $30,000 for a runner now

 

John - I read your posts on the 308 engine rebuild thread where you also suggested walking away, presumably due to the value of the car. So are you saying that the Ferrari 308 market does not put a pro-rated value on a car with an overhauled engine? I would think a car with a newly or recently overhauled engine by a reputable shop would have a greater value than a car with 30K - 50K miles on the engine, all other things being equal...

 

I did my own PPI

 

The PPI if you want one is for you, not for him so it is irrelevant how busy he is.

There are a lot of questions. If you think there is any chance he is untruthful I'd walk away, ie, engine blown or heads warped as you suggest. At this vintage it would not be unusual that the car would have a coolant leak. I spent a lot of money on hoses for my car. If I was looking at the car and it had been stored indoors in a moderate climate I'd probably make sure the engine is free, then just try to start it after looking at the fluids. If he stopped running it because of the coolant leak the oil is probably used and that will tell a story. Pulling overflow tank lid should show no muck, etc. If you know what you are looking at and the price is right, pull the trigger and enjoy the project.

It hasn't been made clear what your purpose is, sounds like you came upon this car as a deal so you may not care what the market is or what you can buy for a given price.

There is a chance on the first crank of the engine one of the belts will give and you'll bend valves. If you two decide to start the engine, make sure it is his car until the moment you are ready to get the services updated. Of course I'd say if the seller is honest, the odds of major issues is about 1%. Of course the doesn't include the items like hoses that will all be beyond life expectency, possibly seals, tune up parts, etc.

Its exciting, decide if you really want a Ferrari. Sorted, this can be a nice car and relatively reliable.

 

prospective buyers dont care if you have a rebuilt engine or not, don't get me wrong
thats nice to offer but the buyer is comparing price, thats your problem if you have to overhaul your engine or put tons of money in your car,he is not going to give you your money back you have to absorb that cost & mistake too bad

he will be looking for a cheaper price in these hard times, thats why people are selling
for a loss these days /how bad you want to sell

I will not put that much money in this 1985 ferrari 308 not worth it
or you will be sorry, thats all folks

 

What kind of price are we talking about? I guess that is the key. If you put the money into engine repair and it is major then if you are buying it for $15K then after another $10-$15K investment you will have a good $30K average 308. If you are paying $20-$25K for the car you won't get it back even with a new engine. If that's the case you will need to want the car and keep it for 10-20 years.

 

A greater value, yes... But nowhere near what a full prorating would imply.

Generally the market undervalues mechanical work that's already been done; for example the price difference between a car that needs a major and an otherwise identical car that has had the major is going to be less than the cost of the major.

On the one hand, this anomaly explains why the advice about buying the best you can afford works - you're buying the the previous owner's maintenance at pennies on the dollar, so the more he's put it into it the more you gain.

On the other hand, this apparent anomaly also makes sense, as maintenance done on the previous owner's nickel can never be worth as much to me as work that I've done/supervised myself. If I could choose between two hypothetical otherwise identical cars, one needing a major and the other not, and with a price difference exactly equal to the cost of the major... Of course I'd buy the cheaper one, do the major with the savings, and be confident that it was done right. So basic economic theory says that the price difference between the two cars should be less than the cost of the deferred maintenance, or equivalently that the market undervalues work that's already been done.

FWIW, I bought my 308 without a PPI... But I do trust my ability to judge the basic health of a thirty-year-old motor, knew that I could deal with just about anything else that might be wrong, and above all else, count the time that I spend fixing stuff as a credit on the entertainment budget rather than a debit from the maintenance budget.

 

I would be more concerned about your "Cost of Things to Fix" list than worrying about the engine. 308 engines have a well deserved reputation for being "bulletproof" You've seen the owner drive the car and anything like a dropped valve will be immediately revealed when you crank the engine. The coolant leak is a concern because the owner may have driven it way beyond the boil and warped the head(s) or blown the gasket.
Things to fix can be really extensive and expensive; a major, ALL cooling hoses and fuel lines, water pump rebuild, the list goes on and on. Easily $10K. If you're paying in the $15K - $20K range you might come out well assuming the paintwork and interior are both quite good.
The bottom line is that buying a used 308 is an act of faith and an act of courage. If you have both in hand then go for it!

 

P.S.
If you're going to buy a 308 an 85 Euro QV is a top choice in my view.

 

+1

I bought a 308 without a PPI that had been in storage for 20 years. I took a leap of faith and it turned out well. My car had no major mechanical issues and after replacing a bunch of worn out parts, it's back on the road. I did all the work myself and my total spend so far is far less than the market price of a comparable level 308.

Looking back on my buying experience, I would recommend at least jacking up the car and turning the crankshaft with a big socket and ratchet. If it turns over smoothly with no binding with a reasonable amount of resistance, it will at least rule out anything really bad inside the engine. Check the oil to make sure there's no coolant in it and likewise, check the coolant to make sure there's no oil in it. Without being able to drive it, you won't know the condition of the gearbox, but you can check to make sure it at least moves into all the gears.

The engine/transaxle really are the big ticket items. Second is the coachwork. In my mind, everything else is replaceable/fixable without a huge amount of expense.

 

I bought a 77 308 without a PPI and was totally burned. I bought a 83 QV and couldn't be happier. Dont buy it without a PPI. There is no rush and there are a ton of 308s to choose from. Take your time. I have not been in touch with the owner who bought the 77 off me in awhile but I think he still didnt have it on the road the last time I checked. Bad F cars are worse than anything else. Save yourself the grief and be happy.

 

Thank you for your honesty - you my friend are a breath of fresh air - too many on here high fiving themselves on the cars they bought, but then disappear once they realized they bought "GARBAGE" -

Sorry to hear of your story, but it sounds like it has a happy ending, congrats on the Qv !!

 

So what are the prices that we're talking about, anyway?

Ace