375+ # 0384 | Page 21 | FerrariChat

375+ # 0384

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by tongascrew, Jul 26, 2006.

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  1. Floyd

    Floyd Karting

    Apr 30, 2009
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    Wouldn't it be a good idea to read the whole thread carefully and try to understand, that this whole story isn't as easy as it seems when you've just read two or three pages?

    Take your time and don't judge anybody without really knowing the facts. Most people here are just speculating about what they're reading here. Even the guys related to the parties involved or at least knowing more or less about them do not know...
     
  2. thecheddar

    thecheddar Formula 3

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    The video of Kleve certainly does put a human face on this dispute, though the "power of attorney" to Daniels does not simplify things.

    I wonder though (and apologize if I've forgotten if this has been answered):

    If Swatters' estate is ordered to return the car, are they within their rights only to return the original parts salvaged? As I recall, the engine, body and a significant amount of the car were re-made and not a part of the theft. Though technically the car is a "whole", would there be a dispute if they elected only to return the chassis and rotted/damaged pieces of original body, etc.?
     
  3. francisn

    francisn Formula 3

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    Exactly
     
  4. Onebugatti

    Onebugatti Formula Junior
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    #504 Onebugatti, Jul 30, 2011
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  5. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    As I understand US Law no. Any restauration would become Kleve's property.
     
  6. thecheddar

    thecheddar Formula 3

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    Hi Jim. Thanks. That is my understanding as well. However, this is typically the case because a stolen car is discovered restored (or modified) and the title-holder is entitled to the car, complete with improvements (or damage). I wonder what would happen if the defendant disassembled the car to its valuable pieces before judgement or before transferring ownership to the claimant (if that were the result)?

    It would seem awfully odd to be legally bound to deliver a stolen chassis with a (separate) brand new engine, a (separate) new body and all the other parts that were not stolen and were no longer attached to the chassis.
     
  7. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    As they are affixed I think they are now part of the car but that's what Judges are for and it will be interesting to see how The Judge Rules.

    The part that troubles me most is the Fraudulent VIN. I see nothing but trying to hide the truth in that.

    I'm shocked that anyone would gloss over that.
     
  8. Ocean Joe

    Ocean Joe Formula Junior
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    You are correct.

    Most national and state jurisdictions are like that.

    If you acquire stolen property in good faith, you may be entitled to reimbursement from the victim but you still return the goods.

    If you improve stolen property in good faith, you must have first acquired it in good faith and then also improved it in good faith, and then you may be entitled to reimbursement but the goods still get returned.

    On one of a kind, unique goods, there are different considerations that try to basically achieve the above.

    What is crucial here is the status of being in good faith. Good faith requires reasonable due diligence as an informed buyer and the payment of the market price - it does not require that you know it was stolen. Discounts of more than 20% have been found to not meet the good faith test.

    Swaters goes on USA National Public Radio claiming he found out "later" it was stolen . . .

    "I was very interested because it was a very famous car," [Swaters] says, "and then a little later I learned the car had been stolen, so I charged a lawyer to negotiate with the owner to make a settlement."
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129138503

    He did not restore it before finding out it was stolen, and he did restore it in 1990-1992, years before the 1999 alleged settlement.

    And as to the reality of when he learned it was stolen, note this stolen Ferrari was widely reported in the Ferrari community in the USA, was on the stolen car database, and picked up in Belgium newsblogs. See my next post.
     
  9. Ocean Joe

    Ocean Joe Formula Junior
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    #509 Ocean Joe, Jul 30, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2011
    http://archives.lesoir.be/une-ferrari-volee-aux-states_t-19890905-Z01YL0.html


    Excuse the Google translator. If there are any French speaking viewers, please translate better. Thanks.

    Note the value - $1 Million. The carcass was valued at $500,000 by Stan Nowak in the November 1989 Atlanta trial.

    Ferrari stolen from the States
    WILMOTTE, THIERRY
    Page 7
    Tuesday, September 5, 1989
    Ferrari stolen from the States
    found in a Brussels
    In the course of last week, the judicial police in Brussels found in a car importer in Brussels, the carcass of a Ferrari that was stolen in the United States. A model so rare that it is estimated at one million dollars is to say more than forty million Belgian francs!
    Since they exist, Ferrari has always turned heads. The cars hit the symbol with the image of the "Cavallino Nero" (the emblem representing a black horse back to Baron Francesco Baracca, who during the 14-18 war, had painted on his plane) are known and coveted by all person in the world. A point that some would also do anything for one to appropriate ...
    Thus, some time ago, the FBI reported to the Atlanta police around the world that a citizen of Ohio (Cincinnati) had stolen his Ferrari in January. A telex which did not allow members of the judicial police in Brussels indifferent as to find a Ferrari that is not out of the ordinary is not already obvious. But in this case, it was even less because it was a Ferrari 375 (Model Grand Prix) in 1955. This car would have been produced only six copies, which explains its high price.
    After a survey of importers and dealers of luxury cars based in the Brussels region, the Ferrari in half démantibulée (many parts have been removed) was found in a Brussels importer. It said the police have conducted the case in good faith, ignoring that it was a stolen vehicle. He also delivered the vendor name American who was then interrogated and arrested by the FBI.
    The Belgian importer who, on 14 March, had introduced the Ferrari through the port of Antwerp, was released after questioning.
    TW


    Une Ferrari volée aux States
    WILMOTTE,THIERRY
    Page 7
    Mardi 5 septembre 1989
    Une Ferrari volée aux States
    retrouvée chez un Bruxellois
    Dans le courant de la semaine dernière, la police judiciaire de Bruxelles a retrouvé chez un importateur de voitures bruxellois, la carcasse d'une Ferrari qui avait été volée aux Etats-Unis. Un modèle tellement rare qu'il est estimé à un million de dollars, c'est-à-dire plus de quarante millions de francs belges!
    Depuis qu'elles existent, les Ferrari ont toujours fait tourner la tête. Les voitures frappées du sigle à l'effigie du «Cavallino Nero» (l'emblème représentant un cheval noir repris au baron Francesco Baracca qui, durant la guerre 14-18, l'avait peint sur son avion) sont connues et convoitées par tout un chacun dans le monde entier. A un point tel que certains feraient d'ailleurs n'importe quoi pour s'en approprier une...
    Ainsi, il y a quelques temps, le FBI d'Atlanta signala aux polices du monde entier qu'un citoyen de l'Ohio (Cincinnati) s'était fait voler sa Ferrari en janvier dernier. Un télex qui ne laissa pas les membres de la police judiciaire de Bruxelles indifférents car trouver une Ferrari qui ne sort pas du commun n'est déjà pas évident. Mais dans ce cas-ci, ce l'était encore moins puisqu'il s'agissait d'une Ferrari 375 (modèle Grand Prix) datant de 1955. Cette voiture n'aurait été produite qu'à six exemplaires, ce qui explique son prix exorbitant.
    Après une enquête menée auprès des importateurs et des marchands de voitures de luxe établis dans la région bruxelloise, la Ferrari à moitié démantibulée (de nombreuses pièces en ont été enlevées) a été retrouvée chez un importateur bruxellois. Celui-ci a déclaré à la police avoir mené l'affaire en toute bonne foi, en ignorant qu'il s'agissait d'un véhicule volé. Il a en outre livré le nom du vendeur américain qui fut dès lors interrogé et arrêté par le FBI.
    L'importateur belge qui, le 14 mars dernier, avait introduit la Ferrari via le port d'Anvers, a été libéré après interrogatoire.
    T. W.
     
  10. 65 f.i.

    65 f.i. Karting

    Feb 10, 2008
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    Floyd, I have read the article inclusive of the newest entries. No matter how I read it, it appears Swatters knew the car was hot. Swatters then thought he could let the dust settle long enought to somehow claim ownership legally (at least in Belgium) and just to further confuse anyone attempting to claim the stolen car, he would restamp a different VIN. Clearly, Swatters did not act with good or honest intent. Per quoted law, Swatters is now in a position of having to forfeit the hot shell and all improvements made. Ferrari may be side-stepping their involvement but (IMO) should have alerted authorities to have the car sent back to the U.S. and let the courts decide (at the point Ferrari had possession of the car).
     
  11. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Wanting to stay balanced and not falsely accuse anyone, it is still difficult to look at Mr. Swater's/ Lanksweert's dealings over this as anything better than dishonest. Why would someone

    - knowingly buy a stolen car (even with the claims that the purchaser(s) didnt know it was stolen, didnt interpol have a warning regarding this chassis ?) and what happened when the car was shipped via 2 private owners and 1 dealer (conventiently ensuring that Swaters & Lanksweert were at least 3 owners seperate from Kleve, which coincidentally ensures they were seen to be honest purchasers under Belgian law). And the three owners between Kleve and Swaters only owned the vehicle for very short periods of time, months rather than years. Is any of this plausable ? and this doesnt even begin to consider whether or not Jack S should have used his contacts to find out whether the car had been stolen or not. Its a bit glib to state he didnt know.
    - then to change the chassis number to 0394 when everyone cognisant with old F'cars knows was an entirely different vehicle.
    - Finally to undertake these dealings with Karl Kleve/ Mark Daniels.

    But what is even more intersting and will hopefully come out in the wash, is the potential ramifications of Ferrari SPA's involvement. Do they own the car ?, what have they done to the car ?, will this affect their american operations ?, and most importantly is there some sort of Machiavellian deal between Swaters and Ferrari that will cause enormous legal ramifications for everyone involved ?.

    After this is all over perhaps a movie (godfather IV ?) could be made from the saga ?.

    t
     
  12. Onebugatti

    Onebugatti Formula Junior
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    #512 Onebugatti, Aug 1, 2011
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    The 375 PLUS has been with Ferrari SPA since 2006. They did not say it was their car with exception for a few employees that said it was owned by The Ferrari collection. What other JS Ferrari has been there for so long? The hard copy records, in original form, clearly state the car in question was 0384AM and there is NO reference to a mix up in numbers. Letters went to Kleve from Lawyers in the USA representing FERRARI in an attempt to buy the title to the car. Swaters never ONCE revealed himself. Did JS hide behind FERRARI ? It was a Ferrari SPA attorney that sent the letters to Kleve . FERRARI had knowledge of the theft and actively danced with all of this. Workshops used by Ferrari did the restoration, and the experts reading this know it. There has not been ONE invoice produced showing ANY of the restoration and who it was for, who performed it, or who paid for it. ( According to the Judge's N. files as of July 31, 2011, and demanded in the discovery by Kleve for a year ) .

    JS already lied in the proceedings a number of times and in his last interview on NPR. JS's team dealt dirty. I can only think of one thing recently : What was in Kleve’s mind when he saw his car with the legend’s Phil Hill , Sage, etc being taunted by JS with a fake number at High Life Events. During these ‘’socials’’ Kleve was begging for help from his own government and everyone else for the return and location of his car. JS had renumbered the car during this time. During this time viewers of this chat were hiding information from Kleve, and feeding info to JS on an undercover behalf. That is the sickest part of this from a Ferrari collectors view in my opinion. This could happen to any of us, yikes. There is no need to pre-judge this, but there should be a line added to someone’s tombstone as they did in the Wild West days.........mmmmm , let me think...... ‘’ Here he lies.....in golden slumber... just to restamp a phoney number.....in his head he had to garble , just to take another man marble ‘’.

    This entire story is about good and bad. Nothing more.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  13. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks Joe.....

    That's pretty special.

    Excuse me, there's something in my eye....brb...
     
  14. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Really, you need to read this this thread, and the history of Swaters racing exploits, and come back in about six months.....:D :D
     
  15. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    Don't drink the koolaid. You, perhaps more than others, know that chassis' can be mis-identified.

    If you go back and look at MM's post on page 1 post 2, it clearly states that historians had mis-identified the car "for years". It also clearly states that the two individials charged with the "theft" were tried and let off with no further pursuit of the case. It also notes that there was a settlement and a surrendering of claim to the car. This thread confirms that the prior owner, perhaps in a not entirely complete state of mind (no offence is intended, but I think it has been established that KK may not have been of full capacity in his later years and perhaps even earlier then that) applied for a duplicate title long after the car was gone with which to continue his pursuit of the car. We have previously discussed this duplicate title theft claim strategy.

    Along comes an attorney and a "finder", initially seeking "information and photos" and a executrix of an estate on hard times and the "stolen" car is back to being stolen. Meanwhile the value of the car continues to escalate leading to reason to continue the pursuit. From the photos of the derlect hulk lying in a scrapyard lot and the time period, it seems the values discussed at the time of settlement were more than reasonable. Paying the legally designated intermediary is not that strange in this type of transaction. It is basically a holder of escrow. When you employ one, you had best hope he is an honest one.

    Some peoples view point is that this machivellian European Ferrari dealer took advantage of an old man through his designated intermediaries. Others will see a transaction that was poorly executed between by a man who for many years was the epitomy of a gentleman in all of his dealings and those designated intermediaries of questionable motive. It seems that if there was a failure, it occured multiple times between Danials and Kleve and that is were the dispute should remain, but then again why would it, as any attorney seeks to include the deepest pockets or in this case the largest asset.

    It is troubling that JS continues to sullied with this allegation of theft with a duplicate title and legal council building a case in the public domain with large quantities of hearsay in all manners of electronic forum (here, youtube and the like). JS saved a piece of history from deporable conditions, attempted to settle when the theft issue came to light, paid the escrow holding intermediary, corrected the historical record when the car was finally correctly identified by historians. At the end of the day, look at the prior actions of the people involved to see who is telling the truth and I think you might come to a different conclusion than what you posted.

    It is my belief that this car will simply never see the United States again and will remain in Europe under its current ownership (whatever that might be) and remain under a permanent cloud in the eyes of US law, however there is not enough credibility in the words or actions of those pursuing the claim to return the car. It is not that I do not have some sympathy to the Kleve family, as they may very well have been wronged, but it does not appear to be by Mr. Swaters.
     
  16. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    What possible reason would JS have in changing the chassis number
    from the one the car was stamped with to one that never existed except
    to commit criminal fraud?


     
  17. Ocean Joe

    Ocean Joe Formula Junior
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    Ney, one must read this thread carefully. Very carefully. Also, please show respect to fellow members by knocking off the koolaid comments.

    There is no getting around the fact that the Ferrari build sheets show that the factory never made any car with "0394/AM", that the factory did make an "0384/AM", and that the factory made a 2-litre motor with "0394". Swaters had already checked the build sheets in early '90, if not sooner.

    The evidence is a Swaters letter to an American Ferrari enthusiast from early April of 1990 that shows Swaters, in his own words, and I quote:

    " . . .0394 according to the factory was never build, was only an engine
    sold to Vandervell/Whitehead.

    According to Ferrari documentation, 0384 was rebuild 1954 sept 2 and
    sold to Kimberly.

    On the chassis of this car you can found the number 03?4. The ? is
    for sure either a 8 or a 9.

    That's why I think it's possible that, by mistake they entered 0384
    at the Mille Miglia, le Mans and Silverstone under the number 0394.

    Last week, I was in Maranello and looked through the archives and found:

    0384 KIMBERLY
    0392 GOLDSMITH
    0396 EDGAR
    0398 VALIENTE
    0400 DESTROYED BY THE FACTORY.

    Do you know what happened between KIMBERLY and Karl CLEEVE (Cincinnati)??"


    Thus, Swaters knew better.

    Bottom line - Swaters possessed conclusive proof far superior to any book, race record, or magazine. Swaters then had people contact Kleve in early 1990 to buy 0384/AM title rights, directly and indirectly. When that failed, and only after that failed, do you see Swaters opt to muddy the waters with a deceptive re-creation of the race record confusion and the deceptive counterfeit number 0394AM.

    Sad, but true.


    Joe


    *
     
  18. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    +1 Joe, IMO good post

     
  19. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    It is clear from the record that the middle number of the stamping was difficult to discern, hence the mis-identification of the car at prior race meetings in period and for many years in historical notes. I have personally inspected cars with two serial numbers on them, one faintly stamped on the front cross member and a different but correct one behind the dampener mount at the traditional location. We are all aware of serial number swapping that has taken place at the factory and elsewhere and confusion between serial numbers is plausible. Very few numbers were actually skipped by the factory. Some ceased to exist early on due to factory renumbering and I am not sure that the only explanation is fraud despite what has been alleged.

    OJ posts what is alleged to be JS's words from a letter, but then goes on to say he purposely went on to "muddy the waters". Placing words in the deceased's mouth, classy. The waters had been "muddied" long before that. It is clear that he was not sure as to what car he had and when it did become clear, settlement made or attempted and the car ultimately correctly identified.

    What is clear is that OJ has a clear interest in the outcome and only posts what is to his advantage in public. As for admonishing me about respecting fellow members, that is laughable. My comment was directed to JG, not OJ and showed him no disrespect. I have followed JG's struggle to correct the historic record relative his own car and commend him for doing so, in spite of many naysayers. In fact the PM's that I have received on this topic do not place OJ in a very positive light. I have no dog in this fight and have no financial interest in its outcome. I do see a pattern of some attempting to rewrite history in a manner most advantageous to their own financial interests through the courts, duplicate titles, lawsuits, slander and they most often have only recently taken an interest in Ferrari and this site. The alleged "owner" is almost always older, easily confused and likely has sellers remorse as values escalated. JS had a long history in racing and Ferrari and I have, in my 40+ years of involvement with these cars, never heard an ill word spoken of him.....until now.
     
  20. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    Thanks, Ney, for posting an alternate view. As a lawyer of over 50 years' standing, I'm always just a bit put off by those who try their cases in the press (can we call this forum the press?). Poor old Jacques is not around to defend himself (and I wonder if he would in this forum in any event), but he had SUCH a great reputation in the Ferrari world that I personally find it hard to believe that he indulged in such skullduggery as has been alleged here.
    I don't mean to say that I am pre-judging this case. I well know that facts, like beauty, are often in the eye of the beholder.
    I'd love to see a real "discovery" deposition of KK---a three hour grilling by a competent attorney on the other side---instead of that brief "preservation of evidence" depo. And for that matter, how about a depo of JS's partner?
    Statistically, about 97% of lawsuits get settled without trial. Will this dispute get settled? If so, will it be confidential? Only the Shadow knows. In the meantime, fascinating stuff, despite the somewhat one-sided reportage.
     
  21. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    I am not certain who owns it, but it seems Ferrari is/was definitely turning the other way.

    This adds tremendous credibility to the Classiche program when a car like this is welcomed even with the known issues and renumbered for even odder reasons.
     
  22. thecheddar

    thecheddar Formula 3

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    I have not seen this link or information in this thread so it would seem to be a timely addition:

    http://jacquesswaters.com/the-case-of-0384am/

    The information is different from what the other side has presented in previous pages on this thread and it paints a different portrait to my eyes.
     
  23. 65 f.i.

    65 f.i. Karting

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    It seems to me an oxymoron to restamp the car, etc. if there wasn't wrongful intent. However, you're correct. There are two sides to most stories. Regardless, it seems (IMO) the just thing to do is: let the courts decide. If payment was made by Swaters, then there should be record.
     
  24. Ocean Joe

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    #524 Ocean Joe, Aug 2, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2011
    The Swaters site has been referenced before in this thread --please see links 266 and 350.

    In this thread I post actual documents that Swaters' site refers to in order to show the date irregularities, and other irregularities, that the Swaters site conveniently omits.

    Maybe Kleve should do a site too with a correct and complete timeline in order to rebut Swaters' arguing his case on the internet . . . .



    *
     
  25. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Ferrari is backing Swaters as the "home team"...

    Karl Kleve or even Kimberly via Chinetti would definately be viewed as "privateers"......

    I think Napolis could expound upon all that, but really, no need to do so.
    It is what it is....

    If that is the original stamping photo that OJ has shown us, it does indeed show some abiguity..."What was the Work Order number, again??"
     

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