Big Tex and fellow readers, just to be clear: Post 512 is not by me, and shows the number from an engine thought to be the original one that was in Kimberly's 0384AM. Tom Shaughnessy has some more info about that I think. Post 491, also not by me, is of what was seen and photographed in 2010 at the museum (May) or Ferrari Classiche (Sept) when viewed by CG and AM. IMO that stamping is NOT original, nor is that metal that it is stamped on. It looks pretty "fresh" to me. I too would like to see that "work order" - IMO, something like "go ahead and cover up that phony 0394AM number now that we have paid [Kleve's unauthorized agent] for the paperwork" . I have asked for an expert to x-ray that spot to see what lies beneath . . . Maybe some readers out there can post some examples of what a period stamping on such a chassis tube really looks like. *
I'm truly no expert, in no sense at all, but what I see is that the "84" doesn't seem to match, and that there is/was some kind of "2" some time before.
Well the ORIGINAL Ferrari stampings, especially on competition cars, could best be described as "casual", not at all like the more careful treatment you see on the road cars of the time, not even the same dies, IMO..... So, you'd have to compare it to it's 'sister cars' listed in the post a few up...that would be an interesting bit of research, but really has no bearing on the ownership question. I think both sides know what car they are fighting for......
The Ferrari 375 Plus of Jim Kimberly was Red. The Popular Science article states Kimberlys transporter, trailer, race suit, shoes, helmet were all Red. Even the Mechanic's coveralls and caps are Red. When Howard Hively had the Ferrari and raced it, the car was still Red. The pictures of the Karl Kleve car is White with Blue stripes and Blue race dots. Does anyone have pictures of the White/Blue car racing? Does anyone have the race history when the car was White/Blue? Does anyone know what years the car was raced when it was White/Blue?
I already thought about that, also under the aspect of 'restamping' of race cars for duty reasons etc. (learned that amongst a lot other stuff from Napolis)... I just felt that "03" and "/AM" seems to fit to each other, while the rest does not.
"America's colors", actually per the FIA assignments as of year xxxx (??). England green Belgium yellow Italy red But yep, NART used them also, per the rules. All the Cunningham cars were white/blue for this same reason.
My research is that 57ish and onwards car was white with blue accents. My research shows last race was G.P. de Cuba and I am trying to get pics, which match the shot taken in Kleve's Ohio property. Note the corresponding paint schemes in the attached two pics. * Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Correct, George Tilp car with p. Hill was white and blue in a recent post. Lots of American Ferrari entrants used the white w/ blue colors. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=329505
Here is a photo of the cuban race in these colours: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272644&highlight=cuba+375&page=5
Great pic! Never saw that before. WOW! Look at the hood that Kleve's heirs still have in Ohio. Compare with the Cuba pic! And to help paint a picture of Havana at that time is this -- from a Road and Track May 1957 article about that race: Chinetti's cars ended up stuck in the hold of the USS Independence as a New York longshoreman problem had prevented their unload. So Chinetti spent a frantic 72 hours calling old customers to borrow cars, shipping them by plane to Havana. And on the night before the race, certain locals passed out circulars around Havana that said: "Don't go to the automobile races. Avoid accidents. s / Revolutionary Movement of Twenty-Sixth of July" The race went on to a success on Feb. 25, 1955. * Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
If you get the car back you should put that hood and the other original parts back on her and paint her back to that livery.
In the book "Caribbean Capers by Joel Finn you can find 4 more photos of the car at this event. BTW the race was held on the 24th of February 1957. 0384AM DNF because of a broken drive shaft.
OJ, What's your moral argument for getting the entrie car as it is now from the estate (versus certain parts)? I know the (tenuous) legal argument (I'm an attorney). (this is not a painting that has been restored... things can be detached) How do you explain to Swaters' family that anything other than the parts removed from the field should be given to you to then be resold? Hell, you're not even the original owner and had to buy your way into this fight. I was interested in the beginning when there was a "do the right thing" aspect to this drama, but now that it's just a "legal investor" (my term) gambling on a big $ payoff against the estate of the alleged wrongdoer .... meh...
Once JS changed the chassis number to slip this car into the mist IMO he lost all right to throw any more "Do The Right Thing" Stones. The fantasy that anyone seriously thought that the chassis number JS used for a while ever existed is silly. Ferrari's records are quite clear and have been for many years as are the stamps that are on the car as evidenced by Photo's taken at Classiche.
His involvment pursuing the engine also hampered Kleve's efforts to reunite the pieces. Kimberly split the engine from the car? How did that go down, exactly??? If Kleve had obtained the engine it all might have been different? That a pretty sad picture of the car, stored outside under tin roofing, but mine have been there too!!
I have been following this epic since it started and several things have resulted.[1] I have always been and admirer of Swaters would hate to see his legacy tarnished. [2] my file on this car has grown considerably. I have not collected all the posts but those I have are to try to keep a record of the developments and are considerable.[3] What I find most disturbing is the changing of the s/n by someone at Garage Franchorchamps and can only hope Swaters was eather not aware or was given very bad advice.[4] The difference between the legal systems on each side of the Atlantic are considerable and will make any possible outcome almost imposible to enforse.[5] My thanks to all who contribute to this thread and particularly Ocean Joe. [6] Finally, at one point in my youth I considered going to law school. I am now fully convinced I made the right decision not to do so. just one man's opinion tongascrew
Chris, Kleve may have been a nut that squandered his family's wealth and took very poor care of his property but, it was his property. If OJ did not join the fight and bankroll it, it is likely that the Kleve heirs would have had to capitulate as they didn't have the capital to pursue this fight properly (maybe what Swaters was counting on?). To me, this is no different than the group that funded the Meritor/PSFS lawsuit against the US government on behalf of shareholders. Swatters possession was good for the car, it is in better condition than was previously in, but that does not make it right. We don't know who will win legally, but the Swatters camp will need to come up with a fantastic explanation for the restamping to counter the black mark it has put on the name. Regards, Art S.
From what I have seen, I do not see how Florence Swaters can avoid the truth coming out about what Jacques Swaters did. I too am a Ferrari enthusiast, respect the Ferrari brand, and respect fair play. I feel betrayed that someone with Swaters' knowledge, skills, and access would have claimed the car he possessed was 0394AM. Swaters knew the factory never made any such car. IMHO that is a deliberate deception. Even the FBI wrote to the Ferrari factory to get to the bottom of the 0384/AM versus 0394/AM issue. I have evidence that the Ferrari factory received the FBI letter, and the only thing the factory (apparently) did in response was to give the letter to Jacques Swaters, who then did nothing to provide or promote the truth. IMHO, it is not a proud moment for anyone involved in that, then or now. IMHO, based on what I have seen, there is a pattern of deliberate deception on the part of Swaters, in an effort to deprive Kleve of his rights and claims. Since Swaters knowingly added things to Kleve's chassis under such circumstances, I think a court will not reward Swaters as if he was in good faith, because he was not. I also think (hope) I will be awarded attorneys fees, which at this point in time already exceed the cost of a new alloy body and then some. I will post the actual FBI letter. These questions arise: 1) What was it doing in Swaters file? 2) What did Swaters, in his alleged "good faith" and alleged status of "ultimate gentleman", with all his archives and factory access, do about it? 3) Did the factory ever reply to the FBI, other than to give Swaters the letter and a heads-up? 4) Did the factory stop their oldest distributor from continuing his deception? IMHO, if it were an American who did the same thing, he would likely be charged with obstruction of justice. The FBI letter is a 4 page pdf. It was in Swaters files. I will retry as a jpeg if it does not post with this message. Joe * Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
