Miura, the original supercar | Page 365 | FerrariChat

Miura, the original supercar

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by joe sackey, Dec 5, 2006.

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  1. SAB

    SAB Formula Junior

    May 12, 2010
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    Agreed, that certainly looks like the Monza and a 350GT (not 400?).
     
  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Not very clear on my laptop but looks like single wiper and lights and if so 350GT?
     
  3. puebla

    puebla Karting

    May 31, 2007
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    Joe, it's a somewhat obscure compliment, referring to author H.H. Munro, whose nom de plume was "Saki". His oeuvre is highly recommended.
     
  4. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    #9104 joe sackey, Aug 13, 2011
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  5. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Just looking at one of the many superb pics in 'The Lamborghini Miura Bible' and came across a pic of an early car that appears to have a rear grille that has a much narrower honeycombe section that doesn't extend so far back into the car and would only be noticeable if you really looked close and inside the grille. From memory of the SV I've seen, and used to clean, which was admittedly a long time ago, the honeycombe extended back towards the exhaust, about an inch or a bit less?, but the grille on the early car I've seen in Joe's book appears to have a much narrower honeycombe if you look inside. Is this the case or is the rear grille the same on all Miuras?
     
  6. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    I believe you are observing correctly. My experience has been that there are small differences in all aspects of all the Miuras components from the earliest P400 cars to the last SVs, so your observation comes as no surprise.
     
  7. aps

    aps Karting

    May 9, 2005
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    Antonio
    Just back from my holidays in Italy.
    That movie is "Novios 68", and that scene was filmed at Alfonso Amato showroom. Yes, Miura 0961 and Monza GT 400. Eduardo Miura never had a Lamborghini, confirmed by his son, Eduardo jr. In fact the Miura family has been waiting for the photographs which were taken at their ranch for forty years...until I sent them a DVD with some of them.
    The Islero was brought by Amato, and the Miura belonged to a jeweler from Madrid who agreed to take his car for the photo session.
    In a few days the magazine will send me a pdf file with my article, and I will post it.

    Antonio
     
  8. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    I disagree.

    Werner Ben Heiderich (Orulla) told me personally that Eduardo Sr had several Lamborghinis and accepted one Miura (did not take the other).

    Consider too that we have found out that there were many men from that era that did not share with their family all the cars they owned or had stashed away, so the fact that Eduardo jr does not think his dad ever owned a Lamborghini does not mean he didn't!
     
  9. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    Well, I disagree with you Joe, because better than "Orulla"'s testimony, Eduardo could never accept a gift he never got from Ferruccio !!!

    I agree with Antonio as his story matches the answers I've got about this particular topic directly from Ubaldo Sgarzi and from Paolo Stanzani.

    They are categoric, who better than them can tell today if Ferruccio took from the produced & available cars, one Miura, as a gift to offer to Eduardo They were both THE top managers of the factory...
     
  10. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    #9110 joe sackey, Aug 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This is no different than the "Frank Sinatra never owned a Miura" nonsense :)

    Sorry but I found Werner Ben Heiderich's representation of cars that arrived in Spain and who they went to, MUCH more reliable than the parties you mention above, both of whom are not renowned for accurate record-keeping or historical recollection.

    Ferruccio Lamborghini was a friend of Eduardo Miura Hernandez. He visited Seville on several occasions. Here he is imaged below with his friend and his Miura. He (Ferruccio) has been quoted as saying that he was so impressed with the majesty of Miura's bulls that he decided to name one of his car lines after them (and he did) in honor of his friend's breed of fighting bull. Why is Ferruccio at Seville and being pictured with Eduardo Miura and a Miura P400? Coincidence?
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  11. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I had a dream that i was following a silver SV with red interior..is there such a car?
     
  12. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    #9112 joe sackey, Aug 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    There is, the ex-Sheikh Al-Thani Miura SV 4852. The interior was originally black, but in 1981 the works re-trimmed it to red and that's how it remains today.
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  13. corsalfa

    corsalfa Karting

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    #9113 corsalfa, Aug 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

    Dear Kaare,

    it has been quite a long time since I sent the picture of my Miura s/n 4806 to all of you but as I've been abroad most of the time during the past few weeks it was a little difficult.

    Coming back to the picture I enclosed in my last post, asking about the place and the people around the car, this was clearly a joke ! At least your reply was accurate as you both recognised Valentino Balboni and
    the Lamborghini factory.

    You'll find below a precise history of S/N 4806 as although the fact s/n 4806 was "uprated" or "svj ised "at Lamborghini" had been clearly expressed by Rob de la Rive Box when he had a picture of it published in his book "lamborghini catalogue raisonné" (1982 ), that fact was not further documented!.

    History of S/N 4806

    -June 1971. A first car S/N 4806 Bertone # 619 red/black is delivered to Jürgen Gräser resident of Saarbrücken /Germany .
    Jürgen came personnally to Santa Agatha to take delivery of his new mount.
    For information Mister Gräser already was an afficionado of Lamborghini as he used to own a black painted Miura S before he got his new SV.

    -Late June/ early July 1971 Mister Gräser wrecks his new red car after only two days of possession, the reason being the rear wheels locked unexpectabily when he was drivring at rather high speed!
    The report put the finger on the gearbox which apparentely self blocked with no other reason than a faulty assembly.

    -1971 The wreck is sent back to Lamborghini and a new SV, the current S/N 4806 ,this time finished with a color combination of Miura Yellow (light orange) with black upholstery is ordered and delivered to Germany about ten months later !.
    This new car Bertone # 716 ,delivered April 28 1972, was a brand new Miura SV (with safety lock on the steering column) forcasted as S/N 5034 which for an unknown reason was re-christened with S/N 4806 and same engine number # 30592.
    When I say "unknown reason " one has to understand that the car was first registered in Germany May 26 1972 as a brand new car and not as a rebuilt car ???? Why call this brand new car S/N 4806 again, I have no idea !!!

    -Mr Gräser kept the car for about a year before Hubert Hahne, then the German importer for lamborghini, sold to Mr Gräser the SVJ s/n 4860 that he had registred SB-DT 472 (SB means Saarbrücken). His third SV in a row!
    Later on, Jürgen started buying Ferrari(s).

    -From 1973 to Autumn 1975, s/n 4806 is owned by a gentleman in Köln.

    -Autumn 1975, Mister Günter Kalthoff of Garmisch Partenkirchen buys s/n 4806 and registers it GAP V 12 (GAP= Garmisch Partenkirschen).
    At that time the car had about 35,000.KMS so Mr Kalthoff decided to have it fully reconditionned and modified at Lamborghini. As Gunter was already a Lamborghini fan, he knew how deal with the people at Santa Agatha.

    -Spring 1976.Mr Kalthoff delivered the car to "assistenza clienti" with Remo Vecchi asking for a full rebuilt on the mechanical side and a SVJ look on the body side. He also asked for the car to be painted in red.

    -Autum 1976, some six months later, Gunter, back at Santa Agatha takes a few pictures of his newly modified mount including one depicting a proud Remo Vecchi standing next to S/N 4806 and an other one showing a certain Valentino Balboni topping up the fuel tank.The car is now all red with full SVJ look but for the holes behind the wheels .

    -Spring 1977 Gunter is back at Lamborghini with S/N 4806 for fine tunning and takes a picture next to the new Cheetah prototype.

    -December 23-1978, Mr Kalthoff sells the car for DM 56.000.- to Piet Roeloff, the Dutch dealer and this is the reason the car bore a German number on the front clip (GAP V 12)and a professional Dutch one on the rear bonnet (29-01-FH) when Rob de la Rive Box pictured it for his book "Lamborghini catalogue raisonné".

    -Early 1979. Piet Roeloffs sells S/N 4806 in turn to German Armin Johl who again commissionned Lamborghini to build a "hot engine" for his car. As Mr Johl was a luxury luggage manufacturer, he was meticulous about details and ordered a full refurbishment of the car including upholstery which was made at Lamborghini again by Bruno Paratelli in beige/off white leather.
    At that time the car gained a special plate on thedriver's sill " costruzione speciale per l'amico Armin Johl. I lavoratori della Lamborghini Auto".

    C. 1981 Armin, then president of the German Lamborghini Club, wins the Bad Neuenhar concours d'élégance with s/n 4806 .

    C. 1988 Armin sells the car to the famed Kremer brothers .

    C,1988 S/N 4806 is sold to south German Collector Hans Bauling.
    Hans Bauling used to own an other Miura SV at the same time (S/N 5008) and kept S/N 4806 for about 15 years in safe storage without driving it.

    -December 2003 the Miura is sold to the current owner.

    -June 2005. Car is taken apart and fully restored from A to Z, saving only the magnificent Paratelli's manufactured interior. Engine and gearbox are rebuilt by Edmont Ciclet who was chief mechanic at Automobiles Paris-Monceaux, the french Lamborghini importer, from 1967 to 1974 and has been specialising in Lamborghini since then.The chassis body unit was sandblasted and all possible details were looked after.

    -May 2006. S/N 4806 takes part to the "Miura tour" .But for its Orange livery and standard front wheels in place of the 7 inches, it looks the same as when Gunter Kalthoff drove it through the gate of Lamborghini Santa Agata back in 1976.

    I hope my explanation and pictures will fully explain S/N 4806 history.The reason I'm so well documented about my car's former history is when I decided to buy my second SV, I wanted something special but made at Lamborghini. I therefore exchanged letters with Gunter Kalthoff before buying s/n 4806 to make sure it was all OK. From then, I reached or met each S/N 4806 owner including Hubert Hahne the former german importer.
    As you can see, there is no gap left over in S/N 4806' life and I hope "adesso e tutto a posto con la sua
    storia"
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  14. corsalfa

    corsalfa Karting

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    Some more pictures !
     
  15. corsalfa

    corsalfa Karting

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    #9115 corsalfa, Aug 15, 2011
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  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #9116 miurasv, Aug 15, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2011
    Very interesting. I enjoyed reading the comprehensive history of 619/716 4806 30592 very much. Would it be a silly question to ask if 716 4806 30592 was delivered on the 28th April, 1972 (14.6.72?) by the Lamborghini factory as a split sump car as 619 4806 30592 would not have been?
     
  17. aps

    aps Karting

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    Just talked to Eduardo Miura jr.
    He was 27 years old when the visit took place,in 1969, and he remembers it very well. He worked with his brother Antonio and his father at Zaheriche ranch, where the Miura breed was established, and spent all the time with his family. He has told me again that the Miura was property of a jeweller named Aldao, and the Islero brought by Amato was from a steel businessman from northern Spain. Heiderich became Lamborghini importer later, in 1970/1971.
    He has been very taxative about the possible ownership of a Lamborghini by his father: "My father never had or was ever offered one".

    Antonio
     
  18. P300V8

    P300V8 Formula 3

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    Is there any chance that you know the exact month of Gunter's visit when this picture was taken?
     
  19. SAB

    SAB Formula Junior

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    That's some history on 4806! Sad, crushed red Miura in the background of the first set of photos (2nd photo).
     
  20. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    " ... as far as I know" would make his statement beyond reproach.
     
  21. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Thank you for sharing the history of your Miura in this thread, in detail. All Miuras have fascinating backgrounds and yours is no exception. The car's post-production modifications by the factory were tastefully done.

    But please allow me to suggest that the reason the new car was "re-christened" 4806 was not for an "unknown reason", and we have a very good idea why!!! It was because in general people like to minimize their taxable liability, and Automobili Lamborghini SpA of that time period was willing to assist a customer by re-using old chassis numbers on a re-built or new car, as we have seen in the case of half-a-dozen Miuras.
     
  22. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Corsalfa says that the car was registered as a brand new car in Germany on 26th May, 1972 so new car taxes would presumably have been due. It could have been the case that it would have been down to the person responsible for registering the car in Germany to take advantage of the rechristened chassis and engine numbers and declare the car as the original (619) 1971 used and wrecked car to avoid the tax but simply didn't. Back then what they may have gained on evading the new car tax by registering it as a 1971 car could have been lost when they were to sell the car as it would have been worth more as a 1972 car.
     
  23. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Good points.
     
  24. Miura Jota

    Miura Jota F1 Rookie

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    #9124 Miura Jota, Aug 15, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2011
    That's what I thought :eek:

    Don Eduardo's ownership is a myth


    because he had never seen the car named after him

    whereas Ferruccio ignored Miura was a proper name , He thought it was a breed or something

    those famous pics were taken in 1968 or later
    that's easy to tell because of the Islero

    besides that pictured car is the 173rd Telaio # 3465 and it was already sold and delivered
    but it's owner politely agreed to lend it for the meeting and photo session

    Why bother to get the 173rd car
    If Don Eduardo had " supposedly" owned the 4th car since 1967 ? :confused:

    the true coincidence is that both cars 0961 & 3465 are Argento :rolleyes:


    P.S. still I wonder who is behind the wheel in those pics ?
     
  25. Miura Jota

    Miura Jota F1 Rookie

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    +1

    I recall an interview with the Miura family circa 2007
    at his Seville Ranch ; they were showed a brand new Murcielago LP640 because of it's linage

    and didn't show any interest at all

    no car guys in the Miura family :eek:
     

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