NEED HELP -- roof won't go up

Yes; they are a series circuit. Thus if either microswitch is Open the entire circuit is open.

SW36.....CLOSED...OPEN.....CLOSED..OPEN
SW38.....CLOSED...CLOSED..OPEN.....OPEN
At ECU....CLOSED...OPEN.....OPEN.....OPEN

|-----SW36----SW38-----|
|................................|
|................................|
|----ECU_Pin4..........GROUND

 

No. There is no logic table. That is why we should build one when you get time. I realize it will take an hour or so to complete. If you do the test, please use the table_format from my previous post #30.

 

>What do you hear and see?

>Is the hydraulic pump running, what noise is it making?

>Is the drive side cover starting to list as you had stated it previously did?

>You state in post #48 that "L016 = more interesting! 11.5 volts when closing the lid but 0 volts when trying to raise the lid", so 0v on P016 is OPEN

>We may want to measure your pump pressure. This can be done at port #11, 13, 21 or 23 on main Hydraulic Block - A in image on Post #47. You will need a gauge that can measure 200+bar. You will need to have a fitting to go into the block. You will need to wear safety glasses. It might be better to manually trigger L020 by running +12v to pin 1 and Ground Pin 2 of solenoid (to prevent recirculation of fluid) and jumper pin 87 and Pin 30 on N011.

>Risky Test [Manually List Cover]; You should be able to manually lift the cover with car OFF, ECU T019 unplugged (all three harnesses), jumper pins 30 and 87 of N011 (but not for more than 1min at a time, then a 5min cooling cycle), then while the pump is free spinning, you can put 12V on pin 1 of solenoid L020 and Ground Pin 2 of L020. This should start the cover moving up. You should only momentarily run L020 in the test, the cover should move in 1-2sec.

*This is very dangerous, I am not an expert. I do not want to see you hurt your car. Only do something like this if you are confident you know what you are doing.

If you think this is getting complex, I am right there with you!

 

Great, I read this thread the other night and now my roof won't go up either! I had it up over 4th of July when I was out of town. I took the car out today and when I got home I tried to put the top back up and it won't go. The back flap flips out of the way and the top moves about 1/2 inch but won't move anymore.

While all of the diagrams you guys posted look nice, it gives me tired head trying to figure all that stuff out. It's also 105 degrees again in Dallas so I'm not going in the garage to mess with it. It's under warranty, so I'll let the dealer look at it. I'll let you know what they say.

 

L016 is the only solenoid for the cover, but you mis read the hydraulic diagram. The valve is only used to CLOSE the cover. If the L016 is ON the cover will close. If L016 is OFF the cover will open IF the hydraulic motor is running AND L020 is ON.

I had previously shown a logic table that was inverted on the L016. This is the fault of a lever in the system mechanically or a mis drawn hydraulic schematic. But either way the L016 is only responsible for motion in one direction, it is NOT connected to the other side of the ram (UP side). Look at the diagram carefully.

New logic table:
L016 at 0V (OFF) and the system at 200 bar L020 (ON), the rear cover should OPEN.
L016 at 12V (ON) and the system at 200 bar L020 (ON), the rear cover should CLOSE.
L016 at 0V (OFF) and the system at 0 bar L020 (OFF), the rear cover should not close, but could be easily lifted up.
L016 at 12V (ON) and the system at 0 bar L020 (OFF), the rear cover should fall with gravity

Yes! They are scattered in unanswered questions throughout the thread, but dont take this comment in a negative way. Remember the cover is the first thing that must move on the top-up procedure, thus it could still be a symptom.

We have been looking at both. And they are identical as far as I can see.
REF 1: Workshop Manual 360 Spider Vol 1 and 2
REF 2: Workshop CD for F430 Spider. The diagrams and schematics have so far been identical.

 

One more quick bit of data backing up the theory that L016 aka MDZ must ne OFF for the shell to open: From page 1142 of Workshop Manual 360 Spider Vol 1 and 2.pdf.

OPEN COVER (where cover = the painted panel connected to hydraulics MDZ):
===========
Top Opening (going from closed to open)
"7. Once the hooks' closing is confirmed, the solenoid valve for cover activation is turned off (MDZ). This causes the rear protection pistons to open the cover; The completely open position is signalled by the open cover micro-switch (EDA)."

Top Closing (going from closed to open)
"3.The hydraulic pump is activated by controlling the relay built in the hydraulic unit, through pin 6, connector 4Q. At the same time, the main solenoid valve (MN) and the solenoid valve for hook activation are enabled (thereby ensuring that the hooks are closed). In this way, the cover activation solenoid valve (MDZ) is detected as deactivated. This causes the rear protection pistons to open the cover; The completely open position is signalled by the cover open micro-switches (EDA)."

CLOSE COVER:
===================
Top Opening (going from closed to open)
"9. The cover is now closed by powering the cover activating solenoid valve (MDZ). When the closed position is reached, this is signalled by the cover closed micro-switch (EDZ)."

Top Closing (going from closed to open)
"6.The cover is now closed by powering the solenoid valve for cover operation (MDZ). When the closed position is reached, this is indicated by the cover closed micro-switch (EDZ)."

I verified that the ram for L016 is on a lever that inverts the ram direction as compared to the top motion. So a second confirmation that:
Cover Opening = L016-OFF and L020-ON + Pump-ON
Cover Closing = L016-ON and L020-ON + Pump-ON

 

The most likely scenario I have that explains the current defect is that your hydraulic pressure is low. But this does not make sense given the fact your top goes down almost all of the time.

There is one other possibility. When the top UP (closing) process is started the windows roll down, the wing-lets open (electric motor, not hydraulic), then the roof hooks (MVVZ)[L015] have to close, like they are locking the top in place. This has to be confirmed by their microswitches J036+J038. Then L016 will go OFF and the pump will stay running and L020 will be ON.

For your cover to open the hydraulic pump must be running, L020 must be ON, and L016 must be OFF. Can you please test that this is the case?

If it is the case you have low pressure. If you have low pressure we will start by swapping out the Relay N011 to ensure max voltage/current to Hyd Motor.

I suspect that for some reason we do not have:
Hyd Motor = ON
L020 = ON
L016 - OFF

 

For the hydraulic side of things outside of the ram, there should be no resistance either way, and both sides are tied to the same solenoid.

For the mechanical properties of the ram, this could be a clue. These rams have a piston. If this piston is damaged, or its gaskets/o-rings are worn out, then fluid can/will flow from one part of the chamber to the other. This would cause the piston not to move as fluid just flows past it. Without a differential pressure the piston will not move the ram, especially under load.

You see this in Slave cylinder failures frequently on a clutch, where the piston seal fails and hydraulic fluid leaks out and eventually the clutch wont work.

The bad news is that if this was the case, and it might be, then it should have the same symptom putting the top down as it does up. You observe that this is not the case.

 

The formatting is fine. My only comment is that the manual states that before L016 is switched OFF to initiate the cover opening the roof hook needs to be in the latched position, which should be the same logic state as the top fully UP state. So maybe the logic for J036+J038 changes right as you start to open the top from OPEN to CLOSED?

So I would expect to see: J036+J038 = closed / closed : before I expected the ECU to switch L016 OFF to initiate the cover opening.

The manual alludes to the fact that as long as the hook is open (unlocked) the ECU will hold the L016 ON, keeping the cover closed. I am not positive here because I am getting this from the verbiage, not a logic table. But maybe its worth investigating a little.

 

Please verify and let me know the results.

Pull it out and take it to any autoparts store. It is a standard Bosch (type) relay. I keep a bag of them in my tool box because they are very common. You will need a 30A version, but for this type of testing its not that important. Just ask them to match it visually, dont fall for their "year, make and model" robotic parts search on the computer.

*A new relay will decrease your voltage drop, which will increase the current to the motor, thus increasing pressure. If you are on the ragged edge for pressure it will help. There is a pressure regulator in the system that will purge excessive pressure.

New Comment: There is also an obvious possibility that the mechanism in the passenger side of the clamshell is binding. Why they would bind on Top-Close and not Top-Open I do not know. The cover opens the same way for both. Thus I have ruled this one out. But maybe time to have another look the next time you are in service mode where to can manually swing the cover up and down with your hands and listen and feel for high torque in the mechanism. Can you confirm you applied white lithium to this mechanism?

 

There is no technical reason for this causing an issue as long as it is not completely full. I think half way between max and the top is fine. Could it be the issue? Maybe but not likely, you were having the issue before you added fluid.

 

This is a very important fact. Thanks for making it clear.

Worth a try.

OK, we can close this test.

I dont understand why you are surprised. As I have stated quite a few times, for the cover to open, based on the hydraulic diagram, L016 needs to be OFF (and L020 ON, and Pump ON). Let me explain. Look at the hydraulic diagram I posted in post #47. Follow the red pressurized hydraulic line up from the motor to chassis (A) port 21 and 23 then to the covers rams. This line has NO solenoids. that means when the pump is running and L020 is ON forcing the system to pressurize, the ram will move from closed-open if L016 is in its resting position of OFF. With L016 OFF the other side of the rams fluid just flows back in the reservoir. I know its not simple, and I even simulated it with FluidSIM to make sure, but thats the logic. Now if LO16 is ON, the solenoid moves thus connecting the ram to the pressurized side of the solenoid. This side has a check valve that causes the pressure differential to move the ram to the closed position. You can also look at my simulation screenshots in post #50, where I only include the needed components in this system and the two images are L016 ON and L016 OFF.

Excellent table, no... spectacular! You have been upgraded to Ferrari Tech Level II.

QUESTIONS:
Q1: You mention P016 is OFF at cover open when closing the roof. I want to know if when trying to open the roof, is P016 ON or OFF when you expect the cover to open?
Q1-Reason: If P016 is ON instead of OFF like we expect, then we can investigate the sensors a little more because one might be giving an incorrect reading causing the Top-ECU to do something unexpected, like not open the cover.

Q2: On your XLS you state "Closing Roof / Slightly Closed". Is this the same physical position as "Opening Roof / Slightly Open"?
Q2-Reason: Your terminology "slightly closed" for some reason makes me think of the top "almost closed" or inches from being completely closed.

I think we are getting close to the issue, although it may not seem that way. My wife thinks I am cheating on her, chatting it up with some online female. Good thing your name is not Zophilicious.

 

Sorry to butt in but could it just be the actual switch for the roof going up and down going bad?

 

I think we need a new column in the xls. we need the microswitch info for the top going down (opening), at the point where the cover just starts to open. Call it "Opening roof / cover starting to open". Se we can compare the microswitches. But its a long shot because top up is probably a different logic tree than top down.

What we really need is a column from a known good car "Known-Good_360 / Closing roof / slightly closed". You have any 360 spider friends?

Because J036 and J038 are on a series circuit this will make this harder.

If P016 is ON then I agree we need to investigate all 5 front microswitches. Mainly because the hook is actuated before the cover is opened during top-up actuation. But also I think we need to look at all switches, as you have done, just in case a rouge value causes the Top-ECU to abandon actuation.