Help! My 360 can’t be driven in wet or rain!

My car behaves very strangely when driving in rain. It runs perfectly otherwise, but as soon it starts to rain the same problem occurs, the rpm drops about 1000-1500 rpm for a short second and the check engine light comes up but disappear after a couple of seconds. This happens over and over again (see attached video but skip the first 50 seconds). There must be something that causes this after getting wet while driving, what can that be?

Thank you!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zlQTHuN5jY[/ame]

 

plug in an obd2 reader and get code(s). autozone will have one for free.
I would think maf perhaps.. codes will lead in direction..

 

Seems like a misfire for me. I suffered those symptoms before. It's weird no engine lights pop on. It's a good idea to check for codes.
Also I'm curious what is the outside temperature since the gauge seems to be low at that speed?

 

Sorry!
After seeing the video more careful I notice that the check engine light does comes on!
What filters you are running?

 

Hi, I'm using stock filters. When filming this i had just been driving for 5-7 min so maybe that’s why the gauge is still low. But it only happens if it’s raining. I was driving today for over an hour without any problems when it suddenly started to rain and it happened again, so I’m very sure it has something to do whit rain but have no idea what’s affected by the water or maybe some high humidity…

 

Certainly check for codes. They should be logged even if CEL is not permanently lit.

Bad earth somewhere? I've read that spurious CEL can be caused by poor earthing. A number of engine monitoring components and perhaps the two ECUs also are earthed to the chassis quite close to where the two ECUs are mounted. If that earth is bad it can cause silly codes and intermittent CEL. Search for "bad earth 360" in the T Q&A forum and you'll probably find a thread or two on the subject. Solution in that instance was to disconnect the earth straps and thoroughly clean up the connection points.

Best of luck, do please report back if helps the situation.

Greg.

 

Let's go to the basics!
Check the water drain of your air box. Maybe it is full of particles and the water accumulates on it and when sufficient water get throughout the filters it may affect the MAFs readings or even the combustion process.

 

Nice one Greg!
Did you know that the biggest problem of my car was related to electrical.
I had a horrible misfire problem couple months ago. After changing MAFs, o2 sensors, mix sensors, battery and even a new alternator I found out that the alternator cable was welded to the block! Yeah! I was lucky it didn't burn my euc's.
I found it with the most basic test, check for continuity with no battery on the car! Yeah, a open loop.
After fix it, the car runs stronger than ever.

In this case it's weird that only shows up with rain. A bad ground will show up anytime.

 

I would check to see if there is a hole in your breather lines, that is letting water in.
check your plug wires to see if they are making good contact.
It sounds like water is getting into something

 

I did see you post about the alternator problem - you might have been assisting someone else with a similar problem recently? I know I checked mine when I read that! I must chase down your thread on that issue so I can recognise the symptoms if ever I have them.

On the bad earth issue I suggested I recall that it was an intermittent problem (but not one specifically related to wet driving).

 

I watch the video and see something different.

The car is in 6th gear the entire time with the clutch fully locked. If there was a loss in horsepower/torque from MAF, O2, Fuel, Spark, etc the RPM would drop with vehicle speed. They are directly linked together when in gear with no clutch input. So all of the investigation of engine power (HP/TQ) type issues could be in the wrong direction.

Did the OP feel a power loss, yes probably but the point is that the RPM needle dropped more than physically possible from the mechanical side. This leads me to believe it is an electrical issue related to the ECU and we can probably not worry about MAF, Fuel Pumps, O2, etc.

I do not believe the RPM could actually drop that much in 100-200mS because of the flywheel and other rotational inertia would keep it spinning.

The other gauges; oil pressure, temp, speedo, fuel do not glitch.

The drop in reported RPM could be:
1. ECU resetting. yes read the OBDII codes as many have stated. Why would the ECU reset, it could have an input / output shorted by the water.
2. The ECU could just malfunction and not reset caused by inputs or outputs at unknown or unexpected conditions (opens or shorts). Shorts are more likely because water is involved.
3. There is a known Ground issue on the 360 engine. If this fails when water is added it could cause the ECU to provide the ground through the harness creating a ground loop, which is bermuda triangle in the electrical world. Check the harness. You could ohm it out, then hose it with water, then ohm it out wet.
4. Your ECU could just get wet. Make sure you have dry engine ECUs. Check them right after the next incident.
5. With a dry car working as expected you could carefully pour or spray water on very specific parts of the engine area listening for the break in Idle, or have someone else watching for it.

The codes are awaited...


Q? Do you actually loose power?

 

This is an interesting thread, I'm guessing something electrical also. I would look for exposed wiring that is getting wet.

 

Hi Trent,

Yes I lose all power, It's not so noticeable when driving at constant highway speed as in the video but this has happened to my while accelerating in the lower gears and then it’s very noticeable. Then it almost fell like the engine is totally turned off during those 0.5 seconds because you go from being pressed back in your seat to hanging in your seatbelt during that time…

 

Hi Greg, do you know where the earth straps are located on the car so I can try to clean them? Thank you!

 

The car has numerous earth points. I think each wire loom has a different ground. The most important and bigger ground point is located in one of the engine mount points and I think is the driver side.

 

These are the two threads I was thinking of when suggesting bad earth.

The second of the two has photos of offending (in that case) earthing points. It's a spider not sure if yours is Modena but the location is more or less the same.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260210&highlight=360+ecu+earth

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=204156&highlight=ecu+ground+360

Worth a try cleaning them up - only a few minutes work really. Biggest issue is removing the engine guards. Mind you, you might not need to actually remove them, maybe try release the several screws only and see if you can gain clearance without removing the gas-struts. They can be a bit tricky to get on and off.

Best of luck.

 

Hi,

I have now removed the engine guards (wow, it was alot of dirt behind these, I have to clean it up later...) so do you guys know which are the ground points?

Thank you all!
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I think this be them in terms of the ECUs and the likes of the O2s, thermocouples etc......

The one you show on the engine desk lid probably only relates to the high-level brake and maybe open/close switch but could certainly use a freshen up.
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Read this article below especially paragraph 3. I would also buy a kit of "stabilant 22"

This may or may not be an issue. If you are a DIYer then you can check all your major connectors for oxidation, you can also apply the stabilant 22 to all your connectors. This is a tedious process but may fix your issue.

The full article here


Intermittent Electrical Parts, Connectors, and Electrical Contact Enhancers

Automobiles rely on electrical connectors of one form or another to connect switches, relays, wires, lights, electric motors, sensors, computers, and plugs together.* However, generally the connectors form the weakest link in the automobile electrical system.

Automotive electrical and electronic component failures can be traceable to connector failures.* An example is the connections to a relay. The current flow through the relay heats up the relay which in turn heats up the connector. The connector looses its grip with the relay and connector itself begins to overheat from its new resistance to current flow. It's just a matter of time before you smell something hot or burning.* The plastic around the connector melting. Eventually the relay itself fails.

"Connector failures are notorious for their unpredictability and intermittent nature. Poor electrical connections are one of the reasons why many cars run worse in the wet than they do in the dry"

This unpredictability causes your Audi service department many hours of grief.* Customers do not understand why a dealer cannot make a problem occur "on the bench", or fix "the problem." Technicians find it difficult to isolate the intermittent problems, and under the pressure of cost and time, resort to replacement of major components which themselves, may not be at fault. However, just plugging in the new part temporarily cleans the connector and the problem goes away until you drive it for a week or so.

Sometimes a poor connection is actually caused by a well meaning person trying to help the problem by using cleaning sprays that contain silicones to make the connections water-repellent. * Why is this harmful?* This is because silicone when certain conditions exist, can combine with metal ions to form high resistive films such as sodium silicate.

*

Those of you who have replaced a full throttle switch on a 200 or 5000 turbo engine know that even though the contacts are physically touching no signal gets through the switch.

This highlights that it is more difficult to design a connector to carry a small signal than to carry large current. Contaminant films which would be of little problem for higher current flow will cause conditions in low signal current ranging from zero-crossing* distortion to an intermittent connector similar to the problems you've found with full throttle switches.

Audi is well aware of these problems and has spent a great deal of time selecting and testing connectors.* Audi even uses gold plated contacts in critical areas!* Even so, perfect connection reliability is almost impossible to obtain.* An example of this is the gold plated air flow meter and throttle connections on the turbo engines with Motronic injection. I spent months trying to find a signal loss problem with our highly modified Audi. I kept getting diagnostic readings similar to "Sensor not reached limit" "Sensor limit exceeded" and "Control Unit Defective". What was the problem?* Not the sensor. Not the computer.* Just connector problems especially when the engine was cold, even with gold plated ones.

To Prevent Electrical Problems:

1.Avoid silicone sprays.

1.Use a good spray cleaner like DeoxIT D5 Connector & Contact Treatment. This breaks up the oxides and contamination. This is only a cleaner and the cleaning improves conductivity.

2.Use an electrical contact enhancer like Stabilant 22 or Stabilant 22A. Initially it is non-conductive and then switches to a conductor in the presence of electricity.* This switching ability is set so that the material will remain non-conductive between adjacent contacts in a multiple connector, and yet enhance the conductivity of each connector. * It's as if it had its own brain, and it provides a tenfold to a hundredfold increase in connector reliability.

*

Skip this paragraph if you're not technical. Stabilant 22 is a potentially electricly-active material which through a synergistic combination of effects enhances conductivity within a contact without causing leakage between adjacent contacts.* While Stabilant 22 has a high dielectric constant it acts to form a capacitive layer which is in parallel with whatever residual resistance exists in the contact increasing the passage of AC signals.* However, given sufficient DC bias within the gaps of the contact the thin film of Stabilant 22 will "switch" to conducting by quantum tunneling and thus limit the resistance of the contact to a serviceable level.

Audi has recommended that their service people use Stabilant 22, and now I'm recommending it to Quattro Club members. It can be bought from Audi and other electronic supply sources.

Here are some uses for Stabilant 22:

Fuses

The stabilant will reduce the possibility of fuse contact heating which can cause a fuse to blow below its rated current on a circuit that is really O.K.* While the new blade type fuses are more reliable than the older 3AG/AGC types they still need help.*

Lights

Poor contacts in the lighting connectors will result in a voltage drop at the connector that robs the lights of some of their brightness.* Use the stabilant when replacing bulbs.

Sensors

Often a "sensor malfunction" error message on a diagnostic computer appears because of a faulty connection to the sensor.* Many times you can buy a new sensor only to have the same error message re-occur hours, days or even weeks later. The difficulty is that quite often the problem is the connector itself rather than the sensor. Replacing the sensor "cured" the problem only because the vary act of replacement simply "wiped" the connector. Using a drop on the connector may save the cost of a sensor.

Instrument Clusters

Malfunctioning lights or instruments are often caused by poor contacts.* I once had an intermittent speedometer that was the result of poor connections in the instrument cluster.

Electric Side-View Mirrors

(Attention Audi 4000 owners) The tab connectors particularly inside the doors are susceptible to contamination from some of the oil/wax rust preventative sprays, and water if you leave your door open in the rain.* Many times the contacts and the switch itself are so corroded that you would first need to use the DeoxIT D5 mentioned above.

Other items

Battery terminals, door activated switches, voltage regulators on alternators, and plug-in relays are other areas that can be helped by use of a contact enhancer.

However, one word of caution is needed.* Do not use a contact enhancer such as Stabilant 22 on a switch for an inductive load.* In other words if the switch sparks when disconnection occurs do not use the stabilant as it would increase the sparking. (However it is O.K. to use it on the wiring harness connections for these switches and circuits.)


Full article came from http://www.intendedacceleration.com/html/tip_14.html

 

First of all, thank you all for being so helpful, I feel really proud being a member of Ferrarichat knowing there are great enthusiast all over the world sharing experiences and really trying to help another. As you can see I took of the engine guards, and even if it was in need of some cleaning up behind them everything seemed really dry and I couldn’t see anything being affected by the rain or wet road. But way down in the engine bay very close to the left wheel I could see a wire that almost didn’t have any insolation left on it leaving the wire exposed , and being so close to the wheel I can really imagine it being affected by the water. So I did my best to cover the cable. Yesterday it was raining a lot here so I took out the car for a drive to see if any of the work I have done helped... And the car ran perfectly. I was so happy driving around in the wet I couldn’t believe it. I have now taken some photos of the cable I fixed, does anyone know what that cable does? It looks like a sensorcalbe of some sort but I’m not sure.

Thank you!
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Nice! It looks like maybe a wheel speed/ABS sensor?

 

Yes, it does appear to be the ABS sensor.

How has it been since? I would have thought that water causing a problem to that sensor would be more likely to light the ABS or ASR light rather than CEL.

 

Seeing the tach drop like that with bumps in the ride makes me think it's electrical. You may have found it. But it could be worth a check to make sure your ecu connectors are firmly set and well grounded. My Miata was doing this a couple years ago and I found that the ECU harness and piggy back harness for the boost cards were not seated well. On bumps it would drop out and such. Your cable could be the only thing though.

 

A little late to the party? This is a 6 years old thread you just resurrected...

 

Kinda glad he did though.... very informative to read about such an odd engine response to an ABS sensor. Good Lazarus thread!