A shot in the dark .... ! I recently experienced problems with my top where the top would not complete it's cycle in the retracted position. If I attempted to initiate the closing cycle, I could see the hydraulic cylinders pulling the top Vs pushing the top. After a few cycles , the top mechanism would stop responding. I traced the problem to a faulty window relay and loose window motor connection. Apparently, the logic / sequence relies on the window position to initiate or complete a cycle.
Well I gave it one more shot before leaving for Hawaii. I got it to go up and fully close. I had to rock the switch back and forth and the roof started to go up. It stopped half way up so I rocked the switch again and it fully closed. I'll take it in to the shop when I get back in town.
I guess I could swap-out the window relay easily enough, just in case. Curious to know how a dealer would trouble-shoot this. I can't believe they would go through everything that I've been going through together with the able assistance of Trent. Do they have a harness that plugs into the roof ECU and which monitors everything via a PC during the roof up/down process in order to identify the likely culprit? Quick question for you Trent. We've made a big point of ensuring that pump is on and L020 is active. My pump-on tests have been solely based upon sound, i.e., I can hear the pimp running (it's reasonably loud). Verifying that L020 is active is easy enough -- I monitor it at the solenoid using my multimeter. Am I missing something w.r.t. the pump? I mean, it is just an audible test for this ... right ... or should I be monitoring it at the N011 relay?
I must be going blind, and/or the Owner's Manual is useless. It mentions two relays for the windows but they're both fuses!! I can't see where the relay is located. Useless documentation unless I really am going blind. In fact, as I look more closely at the Owner's Manual is doesn't even mention the N011 relay that we've been testing. Instead, it mentions other roof-related relays which are all fuses (three of them as far as I can tell). Urgggggg ...
They do have the SD2/SD3, but I dont know how much detail these devices offer on the top system. 1. Dealers are component level troubleshooters; i.e. they replace the component. In this case it would be one or more of; 1. Hydraulic assembly $3983 (just the control module with pump and solenoids) or $7825 for entire hydraulic assembly + Labor 2. Top ECU $2200 3. the entire top, which I have heard costs between $20-60K (no facts to back up this hear say) I think hearing the pump running is fine. The recirculation valve L020 needs to be checked as you have done, because if its off there is no pressure. Remember that L016 needs to be OFF for the cover to move, so you also need to verify that L016 is OFF when you are trying to put the top-up ad the cover is not moving. During Top-Up actuation, when the cover is suppose to open; A. If L016 is ON : We likely have a microswitch issue or failed TopECU because the TopECU is NOT telling the cover to open. B. If L016 is OFF : The microswitches are fine and we likely have: I). Hydraulic pressure issue (pump, L020 leaking internally, integrated pressure regulator bad, etc) II). Ram 66453900 defective III). Cover mechanism 66457500 warn or in need of adjustment / lubrication Let me know when you have tested L016 during the top-up procedure. Maybe it would make a good ROW in your XLS
Just to be sure, I'm going to manually energise each of the solenoids and listen for the tell tale on/off click -- maybe I'll get lucky and find a sticky solenoid. It's 12V of course, but do I need to be careful not to reverse the two connections from my little 12V test battery? I realise of course that I need to be very careful not to short them together -- that'd be VERY bad news I think! Having looked at the wiring to each of the solenoids, it's a brown wire that's common to all of them -- this must be the earth I think.
Trent, if you're around, please let me know if this is the correct way to manually fire each of the solenoids: 1. Connect -ve terminal of battery to "brown" pin at solenoid 2. Connect +ve terminal of battery to "other coloured" terminal at solenoid 3. Careful not to short (1) and (2) together Thanks. I'm pretty sure this is way to do it, but I'd hate to proceed and then discover that I've fried all of the solenoids!!!!
This looks good to me. According to the schematic on post #27 image FE0414 its common ground, where ground is the brown wire. Reverse polarity "should" not matter on a DC motor, UNLESS the motor has a diode to prevent and ground flyback voltage. So yes your diagram above is correct. Did you get a chance to see if L016 is ON or OFF during a failed Top-Up attempt? This is the most important "unknown" at this point. You should make a new row in the xls with the L016 state. Here are the color codes for the wiring diagram. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thanks Trent. I haven't verified the L016 status yet, but will do so. For my solenoid activation tests I think it's going to be easier if I unplug the T019-C block connector at the ECU and fire them all from there. Do you agree?
Easier? You tell me. Maybe not since you have to feel the solenoids click, which will put you on the other side of the car during activation. More complete test? Yes, because you are testing the wires and solenoids. Just remember the cover should open with only L020 Solenoid ON (and pump) because it is the fact that L016 is OFF that makes the cover open. With L016 ON its actually holding the cover closed. So if L016 has failed (failed on the resting state) the cover will still open. Its still a good test because L016 is triggered by the ECU which relies on Hook microswitch input to determine it is relay to raise the cover. This the hooks wont move if their solenoid has failed, so not a bad test in an inadvertent kind of way.
Good point. I'll do it at each of the solenoids instead. We'll get there eventually. I'm still pinning my hopes on a stuck solenoid (2nd choice) or a faulty microswitch (first choice).
After we determine that L016 is ON, where we think it should be OFF, I have a lie I want you to tell the ECU. Do not do this before the L016 test please. Test Name: "Ground Pin 4" and see if Cover moves Test Setup: a. Put top down. b. Take a wire and put a 1 or 5 amp fuse in line. You can buy these "fuse holders" at an auto parts store if you dont have one laying around. Ground one side of the wire. Put the other side on Pin 4 of T019-A (Input for J036+J038). GND---Fuse---Pin 4 of T019-A. [The fuse is just to protect the ECU in case you find the wrong pin 4] You might have to strip off a bit of the wire, or come up with some other clever way of accessing the Pin 4 circuit, like at the harness to J036-Pin_1. This is because the A Connector must be plugged in as normal. All T019 connectors need to be plugged in. b. Once Pin 4 is grounded try and put the top up, but just long enough to see if the cover moves as expected. If the cover moves STOP. If the cover does not move as expected STOP. STOP = Stop actuating the top up switch.
Okay, all six of the solenoids fire nicely both at the solenoids themselves, and from the T019-C connector. I think we can strike these off the list.
Yikes, sounds scary at first glance, but actually isn't that bad. Will do the L016 test first and report back before doing anything else.
Finally got the top to go up. It took about 100 rocking actions on the toggle switch until the cover finally opened up the way it's supposed to. Okay, here's the status of L016 during this test: 1. Winglets opening = off 2. Open cover = off 3. Unfold roof = on 4. Close cover = on 5. Complete closing of roof = on 6. Note: L016 remains on until finger removed from toggle switch I've currently left the roof partially open so that I can access the 5 microswitches in the front bar. I'll have a quick look at these and report back.
Was just looking at my .xls. I wonder why the Cover Open EDA microswitch is always reporting that it's open. Is there any scientific basis for suggesting that this might be the culprit? Ah, perhaps this one is only closed when the cover's in the upright position which would explain everything.
Important follow up question; During the 99 attempts to get the top to go up before it actually worked and went up; was L016 always OFF. i.e. Top down, just pressing top up button and expecting the cover to open 7. Top up button pressed but top not moving = ? So as a word problem; I am trying to see if L016 is OFF when you are trying to put the top up but it fails to move at all. I dont see this information in your table above.
I was excited for a second with this one... This microswitch should only be CLOSED when the cover is fully open. You dont have a column in the .xls with cover-fully-open as a state. Or did I miss something? Thus I think this microswitch should always be open for the 4x states currently in the spreadsheet.
1. Yes, L016 was always off during all attempts, even during the successful one, which is what we would expect. 2. Remembering that the roof was 100% open and that I was trying to close it, L016 was always off during the cover opening phase, although I could see see that the cover was trying to open (but it only ever managed a small amount of opening), and there was clearly no strength behind it. On the 100th attempt (no being exact in my count here) it suddenly springs to life and opens the way it's supposed to. L016 is still off during this successful cover opening phase. 3. Just tested the 5 microswitches in the front bar. They all appear to work as expected. J036 + J038 are connected in series, so I had to depress both of these simultaneously to check the output at T019 (easy enough to do after a few acrobatics). 4. What next? I think we're running out of options.
Ya know, I'd love to throw another ECU in there. Are there any fchatters following this who are in the business and can let me borrow one to try? If it works, I'll buy it!!!!
First of all thank you for this test result, it was killing me not to know the answer. Well if L016 is always OFF then we can cancel the test "Ground Pin 4" and see if Cover moves" because it serves no purpose. This is not good news, it only leaves a few options, I will put them in 4. Microswitches are out of the equation because the ECU is telling the cover to open [ L016-OFF, L020-ON, and Pump Running ], but nice to know you have verified them. Lets just list all possible causes, then the "what can we do next" part. Possible root cause based on 1000 tests: 1. Hydraulic pump weak, damaged, resulting in low pressure. 2. Hydraulic pressure regulator, which is integrated in the pump housing, might be failing resulting in low pressure even with a good hydraulic pump. 3. L020 is electrically working, but its lost its hydraulic seal, causing low pressure. 4. L016 has failed and is stuck in the Activated state or somewhere in between, independent of the applied voltage. 5. Passenger side [Cover] Ram has failed and is leaking internally at the piston seal. 6. Mechanical assembly attached to [Cover] ram is binding, worn, jammed or otherwise not working. Facts: 1. Top-down usually working and top-up rarely working 2. Driver side of Cover during manual closing of the roof seems to be harder than the passenger. Please also note that the passenger side is the side that appears to have an issue. 3. Sometimes the driver side of the cover rises a little, and the passenger side does not budge. What Next: Here are Options: 1. Maybe we have a simple mechanical issue with the mechanism and there is not enough hydraulic pressure to move the cover because of binding, corrosion, bent parts, etc. You had offered to remove the painted cover and look at the mechanicals a little closer. This might be a good option. I recommend white lithium with a precision red straw. 2. If the pump or internal pressure regulator is failing then the entire hydraulic assembly may have to be replaced. See is you can source on at a reasonable price. Not likely it will be cheap, but it would hive you 5x new solenoids, 1x new pump, 1x new pressure regulator. 3. Remove passenger and driver side [Cover] Rams and visual inspect them. Maybe pressurize them from each side with a bicycle pump to ensure the internal piston seal. 4. If you could measure the hydraulic pressure that would be a big data point to reduce the list above. The Hydraulic diagram shows access to a pressure fitting. Maybe it looks like a screw similar to the fill screw. Or if you disconnect one of the [Cover] Rams and connect that line to a pressure gauge [hydraulic gauge] then you could get the pressure from this line. 5. To test #4 above; The possibility of a failed solenoid L016, you could swap solenoid for solenoid to a like item. i.e. All solenoids are identical except for L020, its unique (so no swapping it out). i.e. swap solenoid L016 and L017. I dont think L016 has failed and is this leaking internally, but its possible. 6. Call no-joy and head to a Ferrari workshop.
Let's change fact # 1 to top down and top up rarely working. Always gets stuck at the open cover stage. Based upon the fact that all of the other hydraulic procedures seem to work, I'm inclined to believe that pressure within the system is good and that it's more likely to be an L016 issue (as you say, something internal that's awry perhaps) or one of the rams might be failing. These are the steps that I'm going to follow, in this order: 1. Remove cover and inspect for any mechanical alignment issues etc. 2. I like your idea of swapping a couple of solenoids. Do you have any idea how easy or difficult this might be to accomplish? Am I going to be dealing with a large amount of spilled hydraulic fluid during the process? I remember reading somewhere about somebody who replaced a solenoid (he bought an old one from a breaker's yard) but can't for the life of me find the info any more -- I don't even recall if it was an fchatter. Which of the solenoids (in your opinion) does the least amount of work? Maybe I'll swap this one with L016 for no particular reason. 3. I'll also do a pressure test at some stage, but guess that I'll have to buy the correct gauge and connector. Can't do this any time soon as I'm away on a business trip for the next couple of weeks. 4. If all else fails, keep the roof up for now and have my Ferrari guy (who's 2 hours from here) look at it when it goes for its Spring service.
An additional thought. Just because Ferrari don't sell the solenoids it doesn't mean they're not available. Somebody must manufacture this item after all, plus the same mechanism appears to be used by Mercedes. So, perhaps Mercedes might have a part number. I'll investigate.
This is important information, that makes everything on my list a suspect. In manual mode you can move this stuff around and get a feel for it. Take notes. No I do not. Make sure you protect your car from a fluid leak. Some will leak, but not too much. Lots of rags. They are suppose to self prime, so that should be easy. May as well change your fluid. On that note a thicker fluid may increase pressure. Good question, I would say the top Hook solenoid, MVVZ aka L015 aka [second solenoid from top]. It has the least torque loading (based on my guestimation algorithm) Too bad you will have to put down the wrench for a few weeks. But maybe one of us, or a fellow fchatter will have a brilliant idea in the mean time. Crazy talk for sure KEEP IT DOWN. I never put my top up, in the Porsche or F430. I have been seen driving in the rain top down. I only put my tops up to wash the car, because leaving it down would just be silly.
I removed the cover and tried the open/close routines. What I discovered is that the LHS ram always opens and closes good and strong (this is the side that operates the cover microswitches too). What I also discovered is that the RHS ram rarely operates, and when it does, it's weak compared to the LHS. I therefore speculate that the RHS ram has been on its way out for quite some time -- during this time the LHS ram has been doing most of the work, and because this is the case, the correct microswitches are triggered (as they're on the LHS) and the rest of the roof open/close procedure works. When I first got the car in April it was working just fine. What I didn't realise was that the RHS ram was possibly marginal, but has progressively worsened to the point that it needs to be replaced. This is speculation at this stage. I'm assuming that the ram is weak and failing (it certainly appears to be this way) but are the LHS and RHS rams on separate hydraulic circuits, and could it therefore be that I'm seeing something else that's weak on the RHS circuit. Trent, I've explained myself poorly, but know that you can follow!! I think I need to remove the ram and test/replace it -- not sure how easy this is or if it's even possible to buy just the ram. I can't find a replacement procedure in the tech docs either.
