Is any Ivy League MBA worth it?

Hello Ferrari fans and owners,

I went to a mixer tonight for one of the top MBA programs in the country. When I saw the cost almost 200k for the 2 year program, I asked the students and dean how to pay for it. They gave the usual spiel on loans and private funding and work to pay for the exorbitant cost. However, my job only pays 10k a year for school and I am not about to take a massive loan out for school after the nightmare that I suffered to pay back the 20k loan for undergraduate college degree. My goals is to become a SVP, senior exec and make the big bucks but I don't have management experience and my current job is stuck in technical engineering role with no advancement into senior management. Any ideas?

 

How about take the same $200K (or less) but in VC funding you raised yourself, start your own business, get a "real education" running said business, versus some academic theory incubated in a scholastic petrie dish, and come out ahead of the game both financially and in real world experience.

What's the worst case scenario in both circumstances if you fail ? You'd still be in debt $200K +/-, flat broke, and without a job.........even if you graduate with the MBA...........heh.

Remember, "higher education" is a business too, just ask any one of the hundreds of thousands of unemployed and heavily indebted freshly minted lawyers, accountants, MBA's and BA's sending out resumes.................

 

Yes it is. A Top MBA will open a lot of doors for you and you will recoup the costs. It is a bit of a paper chase. Thats the price of admission. Pay to play.
Look at what JD and MD costs.

 

+1,000 in priciple.

In practicality, it depends on what you want. You couldnt pay me enough to leave running my own business and work for somebody else. And the "big bucks" you describe more often come to those who work for themselves anyway.

 

Make your own budget. I spent much less than what the estimated budget was at the time. I was surprised about the $200k, just did a quick look and it seems that many top tier schools are 10-20% below that mark for unmarried students.

Top MBA programs pay off, otherwise why would all top schools be full of applicants. You can work as a research/teacher assistant, there is paid internship, and cheap student loans.

IMO the MBA question depends on your goals and the industry and type of job you seek. Talk to people in the industry / company you want to work in.

 

what exactly do you do for a living?
would just like some context for this "sage" advice...thanks.

 

Well........I am currently 51.......in my past lives I've been a paper boy, an army officer......a commercial banker.......a car salesman/sales manager/F+I manager.......and a small business owner (high end non-franchised boutique car dealership).........

Oh yeah........high school drop out too.

 

I have two strategies to propose:

1. Harvard/Stanford/Wharton/Chicago/MIT/Kellogg at almost any cost
- worldwide brand
- worldwide student and alumni network
- best speakers and lecturers
- recruiter interest
- top professors, leading research

OR

2. local program at as little cost as possible.
- local network of up-and-comers
- local exposure to businesses in the area (in the CITY where the school is located)
- usually flexible hours at regionally-targeted schools
- usually lower cost, but I'd only go with a scholarship or stipend


There's no middle ground. The very top schools can get you in to any market. Outside of them, it's a waste to go to Duke if you want to be in Seattle, or UCSD to even go to SF. But a small local program can pay off if you're intending to stay in that city - for example, UNLV MBAs get into a tight knit little network that are all over casinos and industry around Vegas. A few UNLV JD/MBA lawyers I know have wrangled some big clients very quickly because they were able to meet VIPs around town. It is worth it if you get enough GPA and GMAT to get in for cheap.

 

your profile says canada and brasil...do you also live in the US or have significant business experience in the US?
as a highschool dropout do you really think you are in a position to judge the potential merits or pitfalls of higher education in the US?
do you know what percentage of new businesses fail? if so, can you please throw that percentage out here for us simpletons?
do you know the statistics for unemployment for people with a bachelors degree, broken down by field of study, for MBAs, for lawyers, for accountants and also broken down by which schools attended , specialty, and geographic location? if so, please throw those numbers down for us simpletons.

thanks for contibuting something intellectual, i'm sure readers here can take your "advice" for what it is worth, and see "your advice" for what it truly represents.

 

I will wait until I am in a manager position then study and apply for MBA programs. Right now I am in the bay area in Silicon Valley and Wharton has a great flex MBA program but its expensive. I am also looking at UC Berkeley and Santa Clara University for MBA programs.

 

if you can get into Wharton...........go.

 

Can you get the GMAT score for Wharton? Do you already have the GPA?

If yes, and you have 4 years' work then go for a top program. Like Italiafan mentioned, if you have the aptitude and credential for Wharton and no obligations that prevent a move then cross shopping wharton and santa clara makes no sense.

 

As a JD/MBA holder from top 10/5 programs, respectively, I'm certainly biased, but I can say without a doubt that there are some doors that simply won't be open to you if you don't. That may be fine, and not everyone can go to a top program, but if you want a shot at them, it's de rigueur.

The education itself can be obtained out of any B-school texts, but the network, access to employers and certification "stamp" do indeed count for something. They are no guarantee, by any stretch, however, and in this environment, I don't think it matters where you went (or didn't go) to school. Lots of my IBanking colleagues are now unemployed and looking. Just like the guy who has no education.

It's a judgment call that only you can make. It's expensive, and it's demanding (not as demanding or rigorous as Law, though), but it also gives you some important and critical tools for managerial execution.

Ryalex's strategy seems reasonable, but I know a lot of folks with mid- or lower-tier MBAs that regret having wasted their time and the expense. I get the sense that they feel they didn't get any value for their investment. They certainly are oft over-looked.

CW

 

Right now I am finishing writing a book this year and then I will study for the GMAT exam. If I do well enough on the GMAT, I will apply to Wharton and UC Berkeley. Both are top programs in the area. I need to keep working and do the MBA part time so Stanford is out since they do not have an evening/weekend program like Cal Berkeley and Wharton offer.

 

When you cannot discredit the message attack the messenger. That is what I believe the readers here will take away from your rebuttal. And if that brilliant strategy of yours is the best you can do then I have already won.

My educational credentials are irrelevant, it is the veracity of my argument that counts......that, and the net worth on my balance sheet. All those stats you seek are publicly available online. Education is a business like any other, and one that is dramatically oversold to gullible newbies IMHO (just like real estate). Wanna be a doctor, in a highly specialized technical business field or scientific field then you'll obviously need it........but if you just want to make something of yourself you're better off IMHO without blowing your brains out (and wallet) going to a college or university. Any of the supposed side benefits espoused by those who have been there (networking, etc, etc) can be had without paying for them.

As for the US versus Canada if you think there is a tangible difference as it relates to business experience you are sorely mistaken. I've spent millions of dollars in the US and travelled hundreds of thousands of miles there in the running of my previous business, negotiating face to face with several other business owners, bankers and managers, as well as ordinary folk.

Intellectual indeed. You sound like someone who is still making student loan payments. The number of people I have met with degrees who cannot wipe their azz using both hands far outweights those who graduated with honors from the school of hard knocks. I make as much as, or more, money than many of them, and sell them their high end cars. I once approved a mortgage for my former high school teacher who said I would make nothing of myself when I dropped out in grade 10.......the look on his face the day he walked into my office back in the mid 80's was priceless. F-in priceless........

Like I said.........."What's the worst case scenario in both circumstances if you fail ? You'd still be in debt $200K +/-, flat broke, and without a job.........even if you graduate with the MBA...........heh." You've still got to answer for that..........

 

I have friends that went to Wharton, Kellogg, etc. They are all doing well but were also doing well before they went. Having said that, they now have access to big networks that they never would have otherwise. One friend got a job working for a real estate private equity firm only because the owner was a Wharton alum too. He joked that my friend got the only RE PE job in the country.

Whether or not it is worth it in a pure ROI sense, it is very difficult to say. They did have an awesome time doing it (2 year party basically) but it'll take 10+ years to see where they're at.

I personally went through the whole process and was all set to go to UCLA Anderson part time. After meeting a lot of my classmates I was honestly not that impressed and withdrew a few months before starting. I would have spent $120k in tuition and I couldn't justify that. With this in mind, I agree with Ryan - top 5 or small and cheap. Don't bother with anything else.

Interesting comment about small business owners making more - it is true. The friend of mine that went to Wharton decided to skip the traditional banking/PE jobs and came home to run the family businesses (gas stations / hotels). He makes a lot more doing that than he would working elsewhere.
Oh BTW, the way a lot of these guys justify spending $200k on an MBA is they plan on getting ibanking jobs and working 100 hours a week to pay them off.

 

If you plan to be an entrepreneur I'd say no. If you can somehow get someone else to foot the bill then yes. These days I think you have to take a really hard look at digging yourself into a financial hole. I'm sure the cost to borrow for this has gone up too.

 

My recent experiences with my son-in-law: Undergrad at a top 50 university with a 3.4 gpa. Went to work for top accounting firm, got his CPA on first try. Went to work for another three years at the #2 consulting firm in the world. Mcats were within the realm of possibility for top 5 b school.
Last year he was accepted and worked his butt off, 4.0 GPA. Part of the deal is that almost every night during his first semesterhe had dinner and drinks with recruiters. To make a long story short, the purpose of this is to try to get a summer internship. He gets one at probably the top financial instution in the world (not a bank, as we used to know banks).
They pay him $8,300 per month for three months. He works his butt off all summer. This generates an offer upon graduation of a $60,000 signing bonus and a first year salary of 110K. The 60K, after taxes will take a good chunk out of his loan.
His tuition, net of room and board is about 50K/yr. There is absolutely no doubt that he never would have had this opportunity had he not gone to this school.
The first question the OP has to answer is if he can get into a top 5 school, it is very, very tough.
I went the route of working for myself, and it was by far the best decision I could have made. When you look at it objectively, and I have no specific numbers, but you would have to think there are at least a hundred employees for each business owner on average. My point is going into business for yourself and being successful is not graranteed to anyone. If you can get into a top 5 school and do well, your initial odds are a lot better.

 

Actually, I never attacked you at all.
I asked a series of questions to see if you could back up your claims with some credible thought process and supporting data.
You made claims, I questioned their validity...and your response is "read em on the internet."

Education is a safer bet to open up doors of opportunities for people around the world than starting one's business with the $200K you would have spent on an education.
You make it sound so simple...just go start a business...you'll be your own boss...you'll be rich....all those "school boys" are schleps...at least that is the tenor of your original argumant.

I say baloney.

If the OP, who is asking advice, can get into Wharton or similar School...then that statistically speaking would be his wisest move.

I think most people would accept that as a reasonable proposition.
If you don't, OK, that's you....but you come across as having a chip on your shoulder about the whole issue, and your advice needs to be taken in that context.

 

The Key

Don't Be an Employee

Be the Employer

 

Still strikes me as odd to this day, a friend of mine was valedictorian in HS and college, had a great CV and 99 percentile on the GMAT and got turned down for Wharton.

 

Admissions is still a "dark" art.

CW

 

Probably represents the credentials of their average applicant.

It is like medical school...everyone has excellent grades and scores.....they want to know what makes you "unique" and stand out.
Top schools really want to know if their alumns are going to go out in the world and make a big name for themselves, and thereby enhance the reputation of their school. And so the cycle continues.

It is the environment that is created by these hyper-success-oriented (and talented) people that make the great schools great, and the resulting connections of like-minded people post graduation that brings the biggest bang for your buck....rarely is it about the faculty itself.

Some of the hardest working, talented (in many facets of life) and brightest students I have ever known were during my years at Harvard. Those people have gone on to very successful careers at the tops of their respected fields...and they are just a phone call away.

They enrich your life with their talent and ideas, and hopefully you do the same for the community of the school...that is what Harvard is looking for... (that, and not ending a sentence in a preposition ).

 

Thanks guys for the valuable insight.

Most of the Wharton students have advanced degrees already like PhD, etc. and wanted to move into senior management based on the panel discussion from the event. One of my colleagues is in the EMBA program and he is quite a bright guy. However, he is already a manager and I am still an engineer so I need to wait until the time is right.