NEED HELP -- roof won't go up

Intuitively, because it's the LHS ram that triggers the cover up/down switches, and it's the LHS ram that's working perfectly, you'd expect (wouldn't you?) that when the cover up/down switch is triggered, the rest of the roof down/up process would progress perfectly.

I've found that this isn't the case. The rest of the sequence still appears to rely upon the RHS ram working properly. In my case, this happens infrequently, but when it does come shooting up, the rest of the roof up/down process progresses as expected. If I manually "persuade" the RHS ram to come up, it doesn't seem to provide the correct "hydraulic trigger (???)" for the rest of the roof up/down process.

I wasn't expecting this. I guess somewhere down the line there's a hydraulic status that also needs to be met.

 

I'm going to disconnect the rear-most end of the RHS ram so that it's totally unimpaired when it comes to extending and contracting. This might tell me something. Stay tuned ...

 

No luck with used solenoids or rams at this point in time. I've resigned myself to the notion of getting a new ram (>$1K) ... ouch.

BUT, I'm still not convinced that we've found the problem. With the cover off, and with the RHS ram mechanically disconnected at its "cover open/close" mechanism, this leaves the LHS ram free to open as it's supposed to, and to trigger the cover open switch so that the next step in the roof-down procedure can proceed. Only the next step isn't working. The canvas roof tries to fold itself down into the compartment but it's a short try and it gives up very soon. It's almost as if there's a rolling hydraulic issue that's now moved onto the next "ram pair" given that the "RHS cover ram" has now been knocked out of the equation -- it's as if there's insufficient hydraulic pressure for the rams to do their work.

I think we might still be looking at a weak pump. I think I have to start measuring pressure. And, as far as I know, the only solenoid that all of the rams have in common is L020, so this might still be a suspect.

I really really hope that I'm wrong about the pump being a suspect, because as you know it's a $7K hit for a new hydraulic assembly, which is obviously outrageous, and which is obviously something I'll try extremely hard to avoid!!

 

I did a bit more thinking. With the RHS cover ram failed (we think) and now mechanically disconnected from the mechanism as one end, it's not receiving any hydraulic fluid -- its lines are empty, which means its fluid is in the reservoir.

I therefore wondered if the reservoir might be too full -- with the roof in the full closed position the fluid level is about a third of an inch from the top of the reservoir -- THERE'S WAY TOO MUCH FLUID IN THERE. No wonder nothing's working.

So, the obvious question is how do I draw some fluid out of the system? It's hard enough to get fluid in there, so I'm not sure that it's going to be easy to draw fluid out via the fill hole. Disconnect a line perhaps and let it drain out of there? Got any other bright ideas ... anybody?

I'm pretty sure this will nail everything ... famous last words!!!!!

 

When filling, it's possible to wriggle a piece of tubing in there and gravity does the rest of the job in terms of getting the fluid in.

Getting it out is another matter. I've tried numerous ingenious tube set-ups and have come to the conclusion that it's pretty much impossible to get a tube below the level of the fluid in order to suck it out.

I've disconnected a couple of lines at the L019 solenoid end of everything in the hope that fluid would drain out, but it doesn't!!

At this stage, I'm running out of ideas for bleeding some fluid out of the system.

Trent, if I disconnect the three hydraulic lines that L019 "feeds" (these are the easiest ones to get to), and activate L019 from my 12V battery, will this open up "the path" such that fluid will flow under gravity from the reservoir into a carefully placed receptacle held underneath the reservoir?

Plenty of rags underneath of course!!!!!

 

PS - changing-out the RHS ram is going to be a painful experience I think. The hydraulic lines can only be accessed in sequence, starting at the bottom. In other words, you have to disconnect at L019 in order to get to L018 etc. etc. This means disconnecting L019, then L018, then L017, and only then can L016 be disconnected. Not rocket science but one more degree of "pain" nevertheless.

 

Seriously, I don't think there's any way of getting any kind of tube below the level of the fluid. Sure, it's easy enough to get a tube into the hole, and you can wiggle it around and think that it's going downwards, but my strong suspicion is that the path from the filler hole isn't that straightforward.

I tried firing L019 with a line disconnected. You're right -- nothing came out of the hole. I then connected a rubber tube to the disconnected hydraulic pipe and was able to suck the fluid out of the line using a syringe. Okay, so this is going to be slow, but if I repeat this procedure on 4 or 5 or 6 lines I should be able to remove enough fluid from the system. It'll be quite slow, but it's safe, and should have the desired effect. In other words, drain some of the lines manually and with suction, reconnect everything, toggle the roof up and down a few times, and the newly emptied lines should re-fill with fluid from the reservoir, thus dropping the level of the reservoir to an acceptable level. I'll let you know how painful this process is. If draining 4 or 5 or 6 lines isn't enough, I'll simply repeat.

I am quietly confident that reducing the level of the reservoir will result in the roof operating normally. As stated before, the RHS ram dumped its fluid into the reservoir and pushed the level to within 1/3" of the top (this is in the roof closed state). You may or may not be aware of this, but as you open the roof the lines drain and the level in the reservoir rises (I guess this is why the tech manuals tell you to check the level with the roof open). Thus, my 1/3" of "free space" rapidly fills to the point that there's no space left for the fluid to drain into as the roof opens, and it just stops working.

Sorry, I've rambled on long enough for now. Get back to your drinks and stuff and I'll report back tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

 

Hey Trent. So, I got some fluid out of the system (sorry, suctioned it from the lines) and tested everything. Two or three up/down rocking actions on the toggle switched re-primed the empty circuits and the level in the reservoir moved to the correct level.

But still the system doesn't work, even with the RHS ram out of action.

Remembering back to the very beginning (i.e., cover attached etc. etc.) ... plenty of rocking actions would eventually get the system to work. There was something intermittent that would eventually get everything running as it's supposed to. Intuitively, it was felt that the problem was with the RHS ram, but these rams are "first in the food chain", so if they didn't do their job nothing else would work. But when they did their job, everything worked.

All I'm seeing now is a transfer of the problem. That is, the ECU thinks the covers rams are working because it gets the signal from the cover up/down microwsitches. It then moves onto the next set of rams, and these now refuse to open the canvas roof. I'm sure it must be the same intermittent problem referred to in the previous paragraph, only it's no longer intermittent as no number of toggle rocking actions will make anything work.

I think it must be a system pressure, regulator etc. issue. I definitely need to pressure test the system.

If it proves to be a pressure issue, and given that I live in Canada (i.e., can't drive the car for 5 or 6 months of the year) I'll have plenty of time to remove the pump assembly and look at disassembling/repairing it. As you say, it might not be doable on a DIY basis, but if I can first confirm that it's a pressure issue there will be nothing lost by trying.

So, the next question is, do you have any idea where I'm supposed to tap into the system on order to measure the pressure?

 

I concur. I think these are the only choices that make sense at this stage.

I'll put a call into a dealer to ask how they measure system pressure. There must be an adapter kit that fits into these blocks -- I don't know enough about vehicle hydraulics to know whether or not the connector system Ferrari uses is an industry standard. It's a pretty slick system actually -- easy in/out, and not at all obvious how on earth it can seal against 200 bar pressures, although it clearly does.

 

Okay, I'm back in town and need to get this thing figured out. I've disconnect both of the cover rams at their rear-most pivots. By doing this I can manually operate each of the rams. I'm not sure I've uncovered much that's conclusive, but here goes anyway:

1. LHS ram is not especially easy to compress (i.e., it's jerky and requires a fair amount of pressure to push the piston all the way in) -- I think I can hear fluid moving out of the ram. It's smooth to pull the piston back out (although it still requires a decent degree of "pulling pressure") and I can hear fluid being sucked into the ram.

2. RHS ram is easy to pull in and out using just my fingers tips. I cannot hear fluid being drawn-in or expelled during numerous in/out actions.

I think the above indicates that the RHS ram isn't working properly. What surprises me is that the LHS doesn't compress smoothly.

Can anybody shed light/opinions on my findings?

 

In the above test, am I just energizing L020? Not powering the pump or anything?

And yes, I'm back, and yes, I'm thankful that you haven't lost patience with me Trent! I expect my above question is a dumb one as I'm just "opening the tap" on the correct hydraulic circuit and manually feeling the effect it has at the rams. No need to have the pump running for this.

 

Okay, I did the test, and there's no real difference from L020 in its un-energized state. So, with L020 energized I observe the following:

1. RHS ram is a two finger in and out job. Can't hear any serious quantity of fluid being moved during this operation.

2. LHS ram offers a great deal of resistance in both directions and I can hear fluid movement during the in and out movements. The movement remains jerky.

What about L016 Trent? As this is the solenoid that's responsible for the cover, should I perform any tests with L016 energized?

Trent, I found my clip resting nicely on top of the RHS suspension A arm!!

 

And yet the LHS ram has been cycled many times today too and it hasn't dumped the fluid from its lines. I don't know enough about hydraulics, but would assume that the LHS seals are intact, thus it keeps drawing fluid into its chambers whereas this might not be the case with the RHS.